S***HOLE COUNTRIES

[Muggsy Blue]

Merge, Why do you bother? Arguing with these far rightist, all who are in denial of the man and yet continue
to support him with their words and one with sickening pictures. It's really not worth it, but I think you just enjoy the fight. Good luck with that.

 

[shu09]

Arguing with these far rightist

Here is another problem with political discourse these days. If you don't agree, you're labeled an extremist.

Most on this board seem to play the middle of the field or lean to the right. They are not far right, for the most part. There are exceptions, as there are on the far left.

Merge seems to be left of center, but not far left. HALL85 and Pirata seem to be center-right, but also not too far to the right.

Speaking for myself, five years ago (and before that too) I would be described as center-left. Since then, I have shifted to the center and even center-right on a bunch of issues. I voted for Barack Obama twice and thought he did a good job for the most part. I did not vote for Trump or Clinton. I wrote in Joe Biden as a protest vote. That said, I gave Trump a chance and I've come to like the direction he is taking the country economically. Obama left him a good hand, but Trump has accelerated growth for the time being. I have also become disillusioned with the direction of the Democratic party. So as the goalposts have shifted left, I guess by maintaining an open mind and very few strong ideological beliefs, I have effectively moved right.

With Trump, you have to tune out the nonsense and the bravado. When it gets down to it, despite all of his faults, he's doing a decent job. Keep an open mind.

 

[HALL85]

Here is another problem with political discourse these days. If you don't agree, you're labeled an extremist.

Most on this board seem to play the middle of the field or lean to the right. They are not far right, for the most part. There are exceptions, as there are on the far left.

Merge seems to be left of center, but not far left. HALL85 and Pirata seem to be center-right, but also not too far to the right.

Speaking for myself, five years ago (and before that too) I would be described as center-left. Since then, I have shifted to the center and even center-right on a bunch of issues. I voted for Barack Obama twice and thought he did a good job for the most part. I did not vote for Trump or Clinton. I wrote in Joe Biden as a protest vote. That said, I gave Trump a chance and I've come to like the direction he is taking the country economically. Obama left him a good hand, but Trump has accelerated growth for the time being. I have also become disillusioned with the direction of the Democratic party. So as the goalposts have shifted left, I guess by maintaining an open mind and very few strong ideological beliefs, I have effectively moved right.

With Trump, you have to tune out the nonsense and the bravado. When it gets down to it, despite all of his faults, he's doing a decent job. Keep an open mind.

Great post. As much as I disagree with Merge (a lot...lol) and even you sometimes, 09, I can respect your views, you come with examples and also initiate a conversation rather than incite. Two guys that I would have a beer with (and I've already had one with Pirata...).

I agree about the lack of discourse. When I see someone use multiple "labels" or code-words in a post, it's all about trying to paint who they oppose as an extreme enemy. Sad.

 

[Pirata]

Merge seems to be left of center, but not far left. HALL85 and Pirata seem to be center-right, but also not too far to the right.

Reasonable assessment.

And then there is Mugsy who is ..... well...I was going to assess him/her on the intellect scale .....but I think I'll pass on that one.

 

[Pirata]

If you define merit as "people from Norway" I have a problem with that
If you define merit as anyone who shows the willingness and ability to work when they arrive. I am fine with that.

Norway was a metaphor as was Haiti. You gotta stop taking every word literally.

If Trump was accurately reported on, you will find his words and actions are in complete agreement with your words:

"If you define merit as anyone who shows the willingness and ability to work when they arrive."

I might change "work" to "work,contribute and otherwise be productive"

 

[Merge]

Norway was a metaphor as was Haiti. You gotta stop taking every word literally.

I think words matter, especially from the president. He is building hatred for minorities in this country. I was worried about that when he ran, and when he continues to say things to build up that hatred, I am not going to just look the other way.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-white-posters-dot-minnesota-city/1042517001/

If Trump could only state something 1/10th as eloquent...

 

[Muggsy Blue]

Pirata, I will admit the Ph.d at UWisconsin-M was tough sledding at times, but then I managed to come out with a double endorsement. I am also an ideologue and could never support Bozo the Clown in the White House whether I was educated or not. So question my intellect as you please, but the intelligence you should be considering is that of the man who would be President.

 

[Merge]

Merge, Why do you bother? Arguing with these far rightist, all who are in denial of the man and yet continue
to support him with their words and one with sickening pictures. It's really not worth it, but I think you just enjoy the fight. Good luck with that.

To answer your question Muggsy, I do enjoy the banter.

I like challenging myself to support my beliefs.

I tend to go off on anti-Trump tangents for many reasons - but I like the actual policy and economic theory debates we get into from time to time. There are things I have learned here about healthcare and gun control specifically that I probably would have never looked into without the banter here.

 

[Section112]

I think words matter, especially from the president. He is building hatred for minorities in this country. I was worried about that when he ran, and when he continues to say things to build up that hatred, I am not going to just look the other way.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-white-posters-dot-minnesota-city/1042517001/

If Trump could only state something 1/10th as eloquent...

View embedded media

This is certainly more in line with how politicians should talk and I think how most Americans think too. I went from a Dem to a Repub and now don't truly identify with either party and am an independent. I'm certainly more on the conservative side but I hate the fact that both parties continually throw propoganda out there to get folks to think their way. There is no their - it should be our. That is the problem with Washington and has been for some time. Dole and top Dems used to go out to lunch or dinner and talk about things. Now folks from one party would not be caught dead with politicians from the other side. That is not how things get done which makes you question is winning more important than getting things done.

 

[HALL85]

This is certainly more in line with how politicians should talk and I think how most Americans think too. I went from a Dem to a Repub and now don't truly identify with either party and am an independent. I'm certainly more on the conservative side but I hate the fact that both parties continually throw propoganda out there to get folks to think their way. There is no their - it should be our. That is the problem with Washington and has been for some time. Dole and top Dems used to go out to lunch or dinner and talk about things. Now folks from one party would not be caught dead with politicians from the other side. That is not how things get done which makes you question is winning more important than getting things done.

Can you imagine any successful corporation that when I operate that way? Groups completely divided not willing to meet? Would any of us choose to run a company that way if we were the CEO? Hell no! I've seen a lot of dysfunctional companies but most of them failed. Until we start holding politicians accountable individually, we will continue to get the same partisan nonsense.

 

[Pirata]

I think words matter, especially from the president.

True, but then Durbin could have taken the high road and not leaked a private meeting.

While words do matter, I put more value on actions and deeds.

 

[Pirata]

I will admit the Ph.d at UWisconsin-M was tough sledding at times,

Dr. Mugs,

With all that education I am not sure how you arrived a calling me, Hall 85 or others in this thread right-wing extremists. There is nothing to support that.

Is our only crime that we don't agree with you?

The fact that you came to that conclusion based on what has been said on this and other threads suggests you might consider requesting a refund from UW-M.

BTW, PhD in what? Just curious.

 

[Pirata]

To answer your question Muggsy, I do enjoy the banter.

I like challenging myself to support my beliefs.

I tend to go off on anti-Trump tangents for many reasons - but I like the actual policy and economic theory debates we get into from time to time. There are things I have learned here about healthcare and gun control specifically that I probably would have never looked into without the banter here.

I too have learned and enjoy the intelligent banter. I appreciate the things you bring to the discussion.

The periodic nonsensical injections by the extremists on either side are annoying and add no value.

I wish they would stay away.

 

[Section112]

Merge, Why do you bother? Arguing with these far rightist, all who are in denial of the man and yet continue
to support him with their words and one with sickening pictures. It's really not worth it, but I think you just enjoy the fight. Good luck with that.

Merge has everyone's respect I believe. He/she usually tries to come up with rational/reasonable arguments and I too enjoy the back and forth. This site would not be the same without Merge.

I think it's funny when Muggsy or Solo come on here and see things very one-sided - they probably think the same of me. But they take the super left leaning view every time and have no patience to listen to another view. Merge is not like that and I respect that greatly.

 

[cernjSHU]

The reason he said "Norway" was because he had just met with them. You know the guy speaks off the cuff and likely gets influence by whatever h ehard 10 minutes before.

Again, you are in the weeds and swelling on details.

Haiti was symbolic for corrupt, under-developed countries that have little to offer the world. Norway was symbolic for developed countries who can contribute.

We will never stop helping poor countries but the days of blank checks, carpet immigration, and being the dumping ground for the problems of corrupt governments who impoverish their people are over.

You can always defend the isolated comment in a vacuum as something to be innocuous. Ah the countries that Trump were talking about were impoverished and have have nothing to offer the US. However, take this comment with the other Trump statements and you start seeing and feeling differently. Take his latest comment together with that Mexico is sending their rapists and criminals, that the Mexican Judge can't be fair, his defending of Nazis and White Power in Charleston, ending DACA etc. You start saying to yourself, well, there seems to be pattern here. It is not only words, it is actions as well.

I don't know why Republican excuse this type of behavior as "just words."

 

[Bobbie Solo]

Don’t leave out his housing practices and the ensuing lawsuits back in the day, plus his birther stuff. Racist pig.

 

[Hall-line-forever]

Polls are showing that Trump is climbing with blacks and Hispanics. New jobs and selling them on the fact that Democratic Party platforms for the last 50 years Limit their economic freedom and personal capabilities. He does say some stupid things , though. With regards to DACA, they are illegal and he is handling it. We will see what happened.

 

[Pirata]

If you set the Trump rhetoric aside can anybody disagree with the general thrust and spirit of the proposed immigration strategy?

Trump has gone on record saying that he supports DACA which would be a path for citizenship for the majority of the 800,000 dreamers. He wants that to be done with a proper law as opposed to a executive order.

He also wants to have secure borders to avoid a DACA issue in the future.

A secure border would be accomplished with multiple facets including a wall, fence, sensor and monitoring technology, border patrol, and policies at points of entry such as airports and roads.

He wants to see a merit-based policy and would like to eliminate the lottery and chain immigration.

He wants to clamp down on H-1B abuses.

He wants immigration laws to be properly enforced.

The specific details of the policies need to be worked out in Congress.

Weak immigration policies is tied to the gang issue and in particular MS-13. It is also tied to terrorism. Controlling illegal immigration will have a positive impact on both.

Does anybody oppose this?

 

[Merge]

Does anybody oppose this?

.
Your list is perfectly reasonable.

Seemed odd that Trump was right there at the table agreeing to fix DACA, and then he wasn't really involved in the discussions outside of blaming dems.
I think Republicans backed away from having him involved because he would have actually done the right thing here and worked with both sides.

Now Republicans walk away from this without really giving up anything.

 

[cernjSHU]

If you set the Trump rhetoric aside can anybody disagree with the general thrust and spirit of the proposed immigration strategy?

Trump has gone on record saying that he supports DACA which would be a path for citizenship for the majority of the 800,000 dreamers. He wants that to be done with a proper law as opposed to a executive order.

He also wants to have secure borders to avoid a DACA issue in the future.

A secure border would be accomplished with multiple facets including a wall, fence, sensor and monitoring technology, border patrol, and policies at points of entry such as airports and roads.

He wants to see a merit-based policy and would like to eliminate the lottery and chain immigration.

He wants to clamp down on H-1B abuses.

He wants immigration laws to be properly enforced.

The specific details of the policies need to be worked out in Congress.

Weak immigration policies is tied to the gang issue and in particular MS-13. It is also tied to terrorism. Controlling illegal immigration will have a positive impact on both.

Does anybody oppose this?

In general those are fine goals. However, the execution of those goals are where we differ. The merit based immigration plan proposed by Trump was an absolute joke. Very few people would come in. Second, is great to secure borders, but how? Building a wall is not the answer cause it is too expensive and does not work. The Mexican have numerous tunnels already.

Yes we have a gang issue with MS 13, but we also have gang issue with the bloods and the Crips. Moreover, this country needs unskilled labor to do jobs That Americans will not work. The farms, construction and the service industry would be crippled if we do not have unskilled labor coming in. So it’s great to say we need people with doctorate degrees to be coming in this country. Yes, that is true, we also need unskilled labor as well.

 

[Section112]

We need skilled and unskilled workers coming in to the US LEGALLY. Obama said the same multiple times. Not sure why anyone would dispute this at all. We need to close the loopholes and secure the borders and improve the lot of the DACA folks. It's all tied together. Hopefully they get it done in the next two weeks.

 

[Pirata]

Second, is great to secure borders, but how? Building a wall is not the answer cause it is too expensive and does not work.

I believe I covered that.

A secure border would be accomplished with multiple facets including a wall, fence, sensor and monitoring technology, border patrol, and policies at points of entry such as airports and roads.

I think its pretty clear that we are not building a wall across the entire border. Wall is Trump's word for Secure Borders. We have already establish that Trump's method of communication is suspect.

 

[Pirata]

Yes we have a gang issue with MS 13, but we also have gang issue with the bloods and the Crips.

I am very close to this in my work. MS-13 is THE focus right now. The others are still a problem, but no where near that of MS-13.

Additionally, the MS-13 problem is closely tied to immigration and border security.

 

[Pirata]

In general those are fine goals. However, the execution of those goals are where we differ. The merit based immigration plan proposed by Trump was an absolute joke. Very few people would come in.

I am not sure where I stated anything about execution and hence I do not see how you can say we differ on something that has not been stated.

As far as Trump's execution, there is plenty to criticize. I also wouldn't exactly give Chuck and Nancy a A+.

In the end, I hope we make significant progress toward the aforementioned objectives that we all seem to generally agree on. Its a shame we can't enjoy the journey to get there but the state of politics in this country has decayed to a sad state.

 

[HALL85]

In general those are fine goals. However, the execution of those goals are where we differ. The merit based immigration plan proposed by Trump was an absolute joke. Very few people would come in. Second, is great to secure borders, but how? Building a wall is not the answer cause it is too expensive and does not work. The Mexican have numerous tunnels already.

Yes we have a gang issue with MS 13, but we also have gang issue with the bloods and the Crips. Moreover, this country needs unskilled labor to do jobs That Americans will not work. The farms, construction and the service industry would be crippled if we do not have unskilled labor coming in. So it’s great to say we need people with doctorate degrees to be coming in this country. Yes, that is true, we also need unskilled labor as well.

I think the conversation will start to evolve from "wall" to "border security enhancements". The MS-13 issue is a big problem and it's just about all illegals. As far as other gangs, this shouldn't be a binary discussion. How do we re-direct the youth (black or otherwise)? Jobs/employment options are the quickest way to make a dent, but it's going to take several generations to reverse more fundamentally. If we need unskilled, lets make sure we get that component, but LEGALLY!

 

[Pirata]

Immigration and Gangs