“Excess Deaths” from COVID

[HALL85]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-excess-deaths-during-pandemic-215337856.html

As mentioned last year, many saw this coming…can’t look at COVID decisions and deaths in a vacuum. Data is now showing that.

The CDC documented 13 other, non-covid causes of death that were inflated during the pandemic compared with historical trends starting in 2013. For example, since the start of the pandemic, the category of ischemic heart disease has recorded an additional 30,000 deaths beyond what would be expected in a typical year. Deaths from hypertensive disease were nearly 62,000 higher than expected.

 

[Merge]

Data is now showing that.

Can you be more specific? What are you saying the data is showing?

 

[HALL85]

Can you be more specific? What are you saying the data is showing?

The data is supporting the conclusions in the article.

 

[Merge]

The data is supporting the conclusions in the article.

Maybe. I am just asking you to explain that, because you seem to be implying that the excess deaths are due to government restrictions. I just want to make sure I understand your point here.

 

[HALL85]

Maybe. I am just asking you to explain that, because you seem to be implying that the excess deaths are due to government restrictions. I just want to make sure I understand your point here.

Where did I say that in my original post...stating or implying?

 

[knowknow456]

I remember lots of conversations that many people were dying of other things but because they had Covid it was classified as a Covid death, i.e., covid deaths were overstated. The data now says we have 900,00 covid deaths and excess deaths in other categories as well.

 

[Merge]

Where did I say that in my original post...stating or implying?

It sounded like that is what you were referring to when you said "decisions"

can’t look at COVID decisions and deaths in a vacuum.

That is why I asked what you were referring to so I understand what you are saying.

 

[HALL85]

It sounded like that is what you were referring to when you said "decisions"



That is why I asked what you were referring to so I understand what you are saying.

"It looks like"...lol.

Decisions....all decisions...government decisions, company decisions, school board decisions, individual decisions....is that better?

 

[Merge]

Not sure why it is so difficult to just state your opinion.

In any case... No. The data does not support that excess deaths are from "decisions"

NJ with lots of "decisions" - 29,495 excess deaths. 32,609 Covid deaths.
PA with lots of "decisions" - 40,119 excess deaths - 42,617 Covid deaths

Florida with few "decisions"- 75,918 excess deaths - 68,572 Covid deaths.
Texas with few "decisions"- 98,271 excess deaths - 83,544 Covid deaths.

Theoretically, if it were Covid "decisions" that were causing the excess outside of Covid, wouldn't that be showing up in the states with the most "decisions" and not the states without them?

 

[HALL85]

Not sure why it is so difficult to just state your opinion.

In any case... No. The data does not support that excess deaths are from "decisions"

NJ with lots of "decisions" - 29,495 excess deaths. 32,609 Covid deaths.
PA with lots of "decisions" - 40,119 excess deaths - 42,617 Covid deaths

Florida with few "decisions"- 75,918 excess deaths - 68,572 Covid deaths.
Texas with few "decisions"- 98,271 excess deaths - 83,544 Covid deaths.

Theoretically, if it were Covid "decisions" that were causing the excess outside of Covid, wouldn't that be showing up in the states with the most "decisions" and not the states without them?

Can you site the source of those combined decisions by state? You actually know the household decisions that were made? Do you know the impact of corporate decisions that effect employees in each state? (i.e. for instance Google sent all of their employees to work from home across the county).

You are also not also factoring in the general health of the population prior to COVID. This is a pretty weak statistical conclusion you have made.

 

[Merge]

Can you site the source of those combined decisions by state? You actually know the household decisions that were made? Do you know the impact of corporate decisions that effect employees in each state? (i.e. for instance Google sent all of their employees to work from home across the county).

You are also not also factoring in the general health of the population prior to COVID. This is a pretty weak statistical conclusion you have made.

This is your claim, not mine. You aren't providing any data to support your view here other than the fact that there were excess deaths. No data indicating where, when, why, etc.

All I did was look at where these excess deaths were occurring, and that does not really support the idea that the excess was coming from Covid "decisions".

When you look at when these non covid excess deaths are occurring, they are almost all occurring with waves in Covid deaths. Likely not a coincidence and most of them are probably Covid deaths which went undiagnosed.

 

[HALL85]

This is your claim, not mine. You aren't providing any data to support your view here other than the fact that there were excess deaths. No data indicating where, when, why, etc.

All I did was look at where these excess deaths were occurring, and that does not really support the idea that the excess was coming from Covid "decisions".

When you look at when these non covid excess deaths are occurring, they are almost all occurring with waves in Covid deaths. Likely not a coincidence and most of them are probably Covid deaths which went undiagnosed.

As I said earlier, I believe the conclusions of the article as to why we had more excess deaths. I'll make it easier for you...here is the last paragraph.

The United States on the whole has an unusually high rate of chronic health conditions, such as obesity, diabetes and heart disease, and has a long-recognized "health disadvantage" compared with other wealthy nations.

That disadvantage was exacerbated by a weak and scattershot response to the pandemic, Woolf said. Other countries that reacted more quickly or took more aggressive postures to control viral spread early on were able to limit their death toll as well as long-term economic impacts, he said.

"We did not handle it well. That's glaringly obvious," he said. "The other countries got hit by the same virus, but no country has experienced the number of deaths we have, and even if you adjust for population, we are among the highest in the world."

 

[anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0]

The data is supporting the conclusions in the article.

Maybe over run hospitals resulted in more people dying from other causes as well. That makes sense.

Hence why getting vaccinated to stop the run on hospitals made sense.

 

[knowknow456]

You actually know the household decisions that were made?

Yup. There was one Pennsylvania household that planned to take a cooking class in New York on the same day the Big East cancelled their conference tournament because Covid was an overblown scare exacerbated by the MSM. That decision ultimately resulted in a number of excess deaths. Decisions, decisions.....

 

[HALL85]

Maybe over run hospitals resulted in more people dying from other causes as well. That makes sense.

Is there a study that suggests that?

 

[Merge]

As I said earlier, I believe the conclusions of the article as to why we had more excess deaths. I'll make it easier for you...here is the last paragraph.

The United States on the whole has an unusually high rate of chronic health conditions, such as obesity, diabetes and heart disease, and has a long-recognized "health disadvantage" compared with other wealthy nations.

That disadvantage was exacerbated by a weak and scattershot response to the pandemic, Woolf said. Other countries that reacted more quickly or took more aggressive postures to control viral spread early on were able to limit their death toll as well as long-term economic impacts, he said.

"We did not handle it well. That's glaringly obvious," he said. "The other countries got hit by the same virus, but no country has experienced the number of deaths we have, and even if you adjust for population, we are among the highest in the world."

So the decisions you were referring to were that we let ourselves get unhealthy and didn't do enough to stop the spread of the pandemic?

Ok. I agree.

 

[HALL85]

So the decisions you were referring to were that we let ourselves get unhealthy and didn't do enough to stop the spread of the pandemic?

Ok. I agree.

No, I didn't "refer" to that. Reading comprehension is not your friend.

 

[Merge]

No, I didn't "refer" to that. Reading comprehension is not your friend.

That's the part you cited. We had a lot of "excess deaths" because we had a weak response and we were unhealthy when it got here.

It even says in the article "Anderson said the numbers carry a degree of ambiguity: Some heart attacks and hypertensive disease could have been associated with undiagnosed cases of coronavirus infections." So I'm not really sure what you're referring to when you say "As mentioned last year" Because I don't think you were concerned about underreporting Covid deaths last year.

What I do recall is a bunch of conversations about the "unintended consequences" of restrictions.. So really not much of a leap to assume that is what you were talking about.

 

[HALL85]

That's the part you cited. We had a lot of "excess deaths" because we had a weak response and we were unhealthy when it got here.

It even says in the article "Anderson said the numbers carry a degree of ambiguity: Some heart attacks and hypertensive disease could have been associated with undiagnosed cases of coronavirus infections." So I'm not really sure what you're referring to when you say "As mentioned last year" Because I don't think you were concerned about underreporting Covid deaths last year.

What I do recall is a bunch of conversations about the "unintended consequences" of restrictions.. So really not much of a leap to assume that is what you were talking about.

lol...I expressed a number of opinions, but you just want to cherry-pick the ones to make some kind of point.

One of the points I posed (from speaking to healthcare experts) last year was that they anticipated seeing an increase in death rates in a number of areas because of increased isolation, resulting in other factors (depression, less access to healthcare, less exercise, increased obesity, etc.). I'm sure you remember me also saying on dozens of occasions, that we were an unhealthy population that has become unhealthier through the pandemic. Some of that as a result of decisions (government, corporate, and other organizations), lack of access to care (physician office closings) and some of that due to poor messaging and guidance, etc.

 

[HallBall02]

Where have you been Hall85? That’s right you’ve been busy reading the old town hall 🤣

We have all known that Covid contributes to more deaths and morbidity than just acute respiratory stress cases. That’s why long term affects of getting Covid will be something we look at for decades. How many people do you know right now that aren’t the same since they got Covid weeks or months ago, everyone knows someone unless you are like sh09 living in a bunker somewhere.

Kidding aside, Covid isn’t just a respiratory ailment, it’s also a cardiovascular ailment and since cardiovascular causes of death were previously the biggest cause of death, it’s not surprising for it to rise dramatically in numbers.

We are all screwed and I have no doubt that overall life expectancy will likely drop again for the 2nd year in a row after decades of it rising.

BTW anyone who reads this article will see that the article in no way supports anything what Hall85 is alluding to (decisions about Covid restrictions caused excess deaths or that Covid deaths were enhanced).

 

[Merge]

lol...I expressed a number of opinions, but you just want to cherry-pick the ones to make some kind of point.

One of the points I posed (from speaking to healthcare experts) last year was that they anticipated seeing an increase in death rates in a number of areas because of increased isolation, resulting in other factors (depression, less access to healthcare, less exercise, increased obesity, etc.). I'm sure you remember me also saying on dozens of occasions, that we were an unhealthy population that has become unhealthier through the pandemic. Some of that as a result of decisions (government, corporate, and other organizations), lack of access to care (physician office closings) and some of that due to poor messaging and guidance, etc.

Not cherry picking anything. You posted something and I asked you to explain the data you were referring to.

The data really does not support that these excess deaths are because of those factors though.

If states with more restrictions saw greater excess deaths beyond covid than states with few, then I would be more inclined to see your point but given that NJ had some of the most restrictions in the entire country but our excess deaths were lower than Covid deaths, maybe your assumptions on the impacts of lockdowns and isolation are not as significant as you are implying.

There are studies on this topic which attribute a significant amount of excess non covid deaths to under-reporting of Covid deaths. Given that you can see by week when these deaths were occurring and they almost all occur right in line with the Covid waves, I'd think there is some validity there.

 

[HALL85]

Where have you been Hall85? That’s right you’ve been busy reading the old town hall 🤣

We have all known that Covid contributes to more deaths and morbidity than just acute respiratory stress cases. That’s why long term affects of getting Covid will be something we look at for decades. How many people do you know right now that aren’t the same since they got Covid weeks or months ago, everyone knows someone unless you are like sh09 living in a bunker somewhere.

Kidding aside, Covid isn’t just a respiratory ailment, it’s also a cardiovascular ailment and since cardiovascular causes of death were previously the biggest cause of death, it’s not surprising for it to rise dramatically in numbers.

We are all screwed and I have no doubt that overall life expectancy will likely drop again for the 2nd year in a row after decades of it rising.

BTW anyone who reads this article will see that the article in no way supports anything what Hall85 is alluding to (decisions about Covid restrictions caused excess deaths or that Covid deaths were enhanced).

Nonsense rant…your specialty

 

[HALL85]

Not cherry picking anything. You posted something and I asked you to explain the data you were referring to.

The data really does not support that these excess deaths are because of those factors though.

If states with more restrictions saw greater excess deaths beyond covid than states with few, then I would be more inclined to see your point but given that NJ had some of the most restrictions in the entire country but our excess deaths were lower than Covid deaths, maybe your assumptions on the impacts of lockdowns and isolation are not as significant as you are implying.

There are studies on this topic which attribute a significant amount of excess non covid deaths to under-reporting of Covid deaths. Given that you can see by week when these deaths were occurring and they almost all occur right in line with the Covid waves, I'd think there is some validity there.

You’re arguing against a position I have not taken in this thread. I said I agreed with the conclusion and it supported opinions experts shared with me early in the pandemic.

Keep trying to twist it to follow your narrative though. You’re failing bigley…

 

[Merge]

You’re arguing against a position I have not taken in this thread. I said I agreed with the conclusion and it supported opinions experts shared with me early in the pandemic.

Keep trying to twist it to follow your narrative though. You’re failing bigley…

lol. I literally started in this thread by asking you to clarify what you were talking about just so I wouldn't misrepresent something you were trying to say.

I'm not even presenting a narrative here. "Decisions we made were bad which lead to more deaths." That is your narrative, right?

I disagree with that narrative because there is too much disconfirming data.

 

[HALL85]

lol. I literally started in this thread by asking you to clarify what you were talking about just so I wouldn't misrepresent something you were trying to say.

I'm not even presenting a narrative here. "Decisions we made were bad which lead to more deaths." That is your narrative, right?

I disagree with that narrative because there is too much disconfirming data.

But you twisted it to claim “state” decisions and posted data that demonstrated nothing.

Disagree all you want, but don’t make it sound like you have proven me wrong. Silly merge.

 

[Merge]

I’m not trying to prove you wrong. It’s your point you’re making which I am asking you to prove is right.

If you were correct, that should show up in states that treated Covid differently. It doesn’t.

Combine that with the fact that studies show Covid deaths are under reported in the US and the far majority of these excess deaths happen to be during Covid waves… they were probably mostly Covid deaths.

 

[anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0]

Auditor landing factual haymakers on Rolodex yet again.

 

[HALL85]

Auditor landing factual haymakers on Rolodex yet again.

Now I know I won the argument when the last member of the clown car checks in…

 

[HALL85]

I’m not trying to prove you wrong. It’s your point you’re making which I am asking you to prove is right.

If you were correct, that should show up in states that treated Covid differently. It doesn’t.

Combine that with the fact that studies show Covid deaths are under reported in the US and the far majority of these excess deaths happen to be during Covid waves… they were probably mostly Covid deaths.

But you keep trying to make a point about state decisions which is just one of many decisions. And you’re discounting the timing of them. It’s narrow and inaccurate.

The authors position is that we handled it poorly which I agree. The data (COVID deaths and excess deaths) in the US supports that.

 

[Merge]

But you keep trying to make a point about state decisions which is just one of many decisions. And you’re discounting the timing of them. It’s narrow and inaccurate.

The authors position is that we handled it poorly which I agree. The data (COVID deaths and excess deaths) in the US supports that.

I’m not discounting it. I looked at the cdc data by week, by state. It doesn’t really make much sense to tie a lot of these deaths to states when they didn’t didn’t have any restrictions… and it doesn’t make much sense that the deaths would just happen to occur when Covid is peaking in the state.

we did handle it poorly and the number of deaths in the US was much higher than it needed to be, just not for the reasons you’re implying.

 

[HALL85]

I’m not discounting it. I looked at the cdc data by week, by state. It doesn’t really make much sense to tie a lot of these deaths to states when they didn’t didn’t have any restrictions… and it doesn’t make much sense that the deaths would just happen to occur when Covid is peaking in the state.

we did handle it poorly and the number of deaths in the US was much higher than it needed to be, just not for the reasons you’re implying.

I’m not implying anything. We’ve had more COVID deaths than the rest of the world and more significantly more excess deaths than normal. We both agree it was handled poorly. Poor decision making led to both outcomes.

 

[SHUSA]

Not sure why it is so difficult to just state your opinion.

In any case... No. The data does not support that excess deaths are from "decisions"

NJ with lots of "decisions" - 29,495 excess deaths. 32,609 Covid deaths.
PA with lots of "decisions" - 40,119 excess deaths - 42,617 Covid deaths

Florida with few "decisions"- 75,918 excess deaths - 68,572 Covid deaths.
Texas with few "decisions"- 98,271 excess deaths - 83,544 Covid deaths.

Theoretically, if it were Covid "decisions" that were causing the excess outside of Covid, wouldn't that be showing up in the states with the most "decisions" and not the states without them?

because everything hes been saying for over a year turned out the complete opposite

and he just willingly called it out with this post (which i doubt was his intention)

 

[Pirata]

"He cited many health impacts beyond covid, including a sharp rise in drug overdoses as people with opioid use disorder struggled to get treatment or used drugs in isolation, and a drop in cancer screenings, such as mammograms and colonoscopies. The CDC previously reported that more than 93,000 people died of drug overdoses in 2020, a record number that far surpassed deaths from homicide and traffic accidents combined."

 

[Merge]

"He cited many health impacts beyond covid, including a sharp rise in drug overdoses as people with opioid use disorder struggled to get treatment or used drugs in isolation, and a drop in cancer screenings, such as mammograms and colonoscopies. The CDC previously reported that more than 93,000 people died of drug overdoses in 2020, a record number that far surpassed deaths from homicide and traffic accidents combined."

Those are opinions which are not supported by data.

Where and when were overdoses increasing? If blaming it on isolation, should there be a correlation between overdose deaths and where people were isolating?

We’re rates of colon and breast caner one of the 13 causes that the cdc noted increased?

 

[Pirata]

Could be.

 

[HALL85]

Those are opinions which are not supported by data.

Where and when were overdoses increasing? If blaming it on isolation, should there be a correlation between overdose deaths and where people were isolating?

We’re rates of colon and breast caner one of the 13 causes that the cdc noted increased?

Why the fixation on isolation?….the article says decisions and we handled it poorly resulting in some of highest number of COVID deaths in the world and now we are seeing the resulting excess deaths. Lots of bad decisions were made including forcing people into long term periods of isolation. Cuomo made lots of bad decisions in handling nursing homes. The article alludes to the elderly who in many cases lost the will to live (the term is death by loneliness) when they could not have visitors. Cutting off access to care for people suffering from chronic health issues (cancer, cardiac, etc.) was a bad decision as their conditions were allowed to worsen.

 

[Pirata]

Why the fixation on isolation?

Because he is putting words in your mouth as he usually does.

 

[Merge]

Why the fixation on isolation?….the article says decisions and we handled it poorly resulting in some of highest number of COVID deaths in the world and now we are seeing the resulting excess deaths. Lots of bad decisions were made including forcing people into long term periods of isolation. Cuomo made lots of bad decisions in handling nursing homes. The article alludes to the elderly who in many cases lost the will to live (the term is death by loneliness) when they could not have visitors. Cutting off access to care for people suffering from chronic health issues (cancer, cardiac, etc.) was a bad decision as their conditions were allowed to worsen.

Because the quote pirata cited mentioned isolation as a reason why overdose deaths were up.

I get why someone would assume that, but the theory doesn’t really hold up

also, I’m sure there were some deaths from loneliness.. but again, not really sure why that would be occurring in states that didn’t have any visitation limitations.

 

[HALL85]

CBS News ran a piece the other night and at the end of it they put in bold on the screen that those now most at risk are:
- The elderly
- Children under 5
- Unvaccinated

Factually incorrect. How many children under 5 have gotten COVID and how many have without comorbidities have died? Hardly any.

78% of fatalities were obese….not just overweight…obese. Nothing about cardio vascular disease or diabetes.

 

[Merge]

Because he is putting words in your mouth as he usually does.

lol…what? I wasn’t even responding to him. I was responding to your post about quote about drug overdoses and isolation….