Charlottesville

[donnie_baseball]

I've been thinking about this quite a bit, and haven't touched it with a ten foot pole with my more left-leaning friends, or on social media. I'd like to test the waters here, and see what people are thinking.

With the death of the young lady (from all accounts a peaceful activist), it is a terrible tragedy -- and an ugly incident prior to the car driving into the counter protesters.

The questions I have:
Is hate speech protected speech? Apparently the white nationalist group held a rally the night before, which went unopposed, and there were no issues, other than the disgusting sight of a gathering of racists.

Should we continue removing/destroying monuments to the past, even if it was a regrettable part of our nation's history? If I have a sliver of common ground with the group protesting the removal of the Robert E. Lee monument, it is there -- though purely for historical reasons. Erasing/editing history is extremely dangerous.

Whom can we trust to report the news? Most of the MSM labels this as neo-Nazi violence, without any mention of the makeup of the counter-protesters, and any ideological, violent tendencies they may have had; the protesters who destroyed the Confederate monument in NC yesterday were painted as peace-loving, anti-racist hippies, rather than reckless defacers of public property.

Meanwhile, some credible conservative publications raised some questions, many fair, but were treated as apologists to suggest that there may have been more than one group to blame for the violence in Charlottesville. A NYT reporter tweeted something to that effect, and was shouted down, and forced to backpedal.

No matter what your leaning, there is a news outlet for you, and they all tell very different stories. Scary, scary times.

 

[HALL85]

Good post and scary, scary times like you said. I'll just add my random thoughts:
* I "hate" to say it but hate speech should be protected, primarily because it becomes a slippery slope as to who then determines what is hate speech.
* I also agree that the MSM has shown their colors once again. Objective reporting (all sides) has pretty much left the building which is very sad.
* Despicable act and this guy should get the chair ASAP. Thus far though, this looks to be the act of one miserable, deranged idiot; not a premeditated act of violence by the nut job protestors.
* I would leave the decision to remove statues up to the local community. I can understand both sides of the Gen. Lee argument, but that was for the people of Charlottesville to make the call; not me. I'm a history buff, so removing statues like this rubs me the wrong way.
* With regards to Trump's statements, my observation is that the country has broken down into three polarized groups.
1- Group 1 just despises him and will never give him credit for anything.
2- Group 2 will continue to stand by anything he says even if he shoots someone on Madison Ave.
3- Group 3 is somewhere in the middle.
Now the debate will be how big each of these groups are, but having been out amongst several community groups and functions in the past two days, Group 3 is by far largest, although you would never know that from watching TV.
* Sad to say, we have gotten more polarized as a nation. IMO, this has been happening well before Trump. Did he capitalize on this momentum to win the election? Absolutely. Has it gotten worse since he's been President? IMO, it has. Is he the only one responsible? No, No, No.

 

[Merge]

While I do understand both sides of the debate about removing statues, I was incredibly disturbed by the number of people willing to go out and show their faces in support of their racist beliefs. The kkk used to wear hoods to hide their identity but it seems that being a member of a hate group is no longer something to be embarrassed about. They have become more emboldened by something...

and I know you will just call me an anti-Trumper but this is exactly the shit I have been worried about with his rhetoric. See my comment from February.

Many people have been concerned (myself included) that Trumps rhetoric is dangerous and would lead to violence against minorities ever since he started running... and that nationalism has historically proven to have the potential to be very dangerous.

This is on Trump.
You can't go out on a platform that makes people afraid of brown people and retweet fringe radical racists and not expect to have an impact on giving that fringe group a voice.

I don't think this happens under a President Kasich, Rubio, Bush etc... This is happening because of Trump. The media was right to bash Trump[ for his "both sides" bullshit. You get out there and tell the country that there is no place in America for the kkk. If it was a Muslim man driving into the crowd of white nationalists, how long do you think it would have taken for Trump to come out and speak about the terrorist?

Sad to say, we have gotten more polarized as a nation. IMO, this has been happening well before Trump. Did he capitalize on this momentum to win the election? Absolutely. Has it gotten worse since he's been President? IMO, it has. Is he the only one responsible? No, No, No.

I don't think anyone is suggesting he is the only one responsible...but he is currently playing a gigantic part. This white nationalist movement is not stopping. Trump needs to be much more vocal against them.

"We're going to be more active than ever before," Matthew Heimbach, a white nationalist leader, said Monday.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...nationalists-charlottesville-just-a-beginning

 

[Section112]

All three posts above are very good and reasonable.

My friend is a Virginia State Police Officer and he asked for prayers for his daughter who is a new State police officer before all this happened because he knew she would be there protecting protesters at the rally. They were very worried there were gonna be problems at these two rallies but the permits to march were in place so they were on alert but could not stop it. I think the police really tried but with all the cars crashing into crowds they just have to close off streets to traffic in a bigger perimeter than ever before.

Hate speech is currently protected and that is law. But when it's followed up by violence that should set a precedent to use that combination of events to slow or not approve future rallies for the same or similar groups. Very gray area I know but states need to look at this closely to see what they can do to protect people and law enforcement, because we are seeing too many lives lost.

I am not a fan of changing history and removing statues etc. That history is a reminder of what occurred and how we got here. But I can also understand private universities and towns etc. changing the stuff on their campus or properties to reflect current times. I don't like it but there is no right answer here.

Trump should have come out right away and resoundingly denounced what occurred and who was involved. Saying "from many sides" or whatever the exact words were, showed his true colors. Wrong is wrong and this was horrible and wrong and he should have said it right from the start. He criticized Obama for not saying the word terrorist many times and you can't have it both ways. He is listening too much to Bannon and his terrible advisors but should have come out strongly and said the words and this will not be tolerated. He comes off as weak and he only said it because he was pressured to say it. He deserves all the shit he is getting and more.

The press again does not cover all sides and has not been clear that this seemed to start over a statue being removed and some disagreed. They are also not covering when protesters who stand up to racism and other bad stuff are getting violent too in some cases (not this one). All violence has to stop. The agendas that the different press outlets have seem to overwhelm how they cover any story. Noone just covers the story anymore.

The white supremecists and the KKK and neo nazis are unfortunately alive and well and this is really really bad for America. I think there is a Trump effect for sure and it is making them more brazen. Future rallies need to be stopped, minimized or slowed as much as possible IMO due to all the violence. Hate speech might be protected but towns also have to make a determination if they have enough resources to try and manage these rallies without them turning violent and that has to be hard to do.

Trump has dug his grave and he is an attention whore and he sure got lots of attention from not saying the right thing out of the gate and keeping the door open for white supremacists etc with his statement Saturday. He was 100% wrong.

The lives that are being lost are really bad. The ability to protest is a good part of being an American. But there are so many fringe groups right now supported by crazies on both the right and left that it is getting very scary. I've told my two kids in college to do the right thing, treat everyone with respect and support the right things. But I am also begging them to stay away from these gatherings and rallies because too many people are getting hurt and killed. We need to say more prayers for America because things are not right.

 

[knowknow456]

To me,

Hate speech is protected speech

I am generally opposed to removing the statues, renaming buildings etc. I understand the symbolism, but do not support a systematic removal of historical evidence.

I think the MSM is doing a sufficient job covering this important story. The trick for me is not to rely on a single source.

 

[cernjSHU]

Hate speech is protected speech. That is clear under Supreme Court decisions. I am of the opinion that no one should have went to counter protest and let these idiot racists do their little pathetic March with no one covering them in the media nor anyone watching them.

Hundreds of thousands American died fighting Hitler. And we have Americans honoring the memory of Adolf Hitler. This is disgusting and wrong. I know men who have earned the Purple Heart in D Day and the Batlle of the Buldge. Millions of people were savagedly killed in concentration camps Jews, Homsexuals, gypsies, Russians poles etc. You can't be an American and be a Nazi. Those two things are mutually exclusive. WW2 was a war that the US established their leadership in the world as a world power and were on the morally right side.

Yet, we have so-called Americans do the Nazi salute and chant Nazi slogans. I understand the desire to fight back against that. I don't condone violence by the counter protestors. And the Antifa people are particularly outrageous when it comes to incidents like the Berkeley protest. However, the instigators in this incident were clearly the White nationals, KKK and nazis. I do not think the media covered it unfairly

The removal of statues do not change history. Statues are erected for those deserving to be honored. The confederates and the south lost the war. They should never have been honored by erecting statues. They were traitors and are a relic of slavery. Now, I want to hear about Lee and the confederates in books and tv shows and museums. That should never be whitewashed. But taking down a statue does nothing to eradicate history. It just removes the honoring of them.

As far as Trump goes, it just another example how he is unfit for the job. It's just sad how low we have stooped with this guy.

 

[donnie_baseball]

Excellent post, cern. The only part I disagree with is the statues. If they are allowed to be made non-existent, the books and documentaries will be next. If Lee and Co. were traitors, why weren't they hanged? Why have the statues stood for centuries? Why tear them down now?

 

[Section112]

They can change the statues. They can't change history books and museums that mark history. In the end that is where I stand.

 

[cernjSHU]

They can change the statues. They can't change history books and museums that mark history. In the end that is where I stand.

I agree with 112. History is not changed by taking down statues. Paterno is the greatest winning coach in Penn St history. No changing those facts. But he should not be honored with a statue. Similarly, Lee will be remembered as one of the great military generals in our history. That will always remain. However, should the General of the Confederacy be honored in this country? No. Benedict Arnold has not been forgotten or his great victories. Has he been wiped away in the history books? No. However, there are no statues of Benedict Arnold erected in this country. He betrayed the country and like all the Leaders of the Confederacy should be treated the same.

Why he was not hanged or charged with treason goes back to a really a political decision. Was it better to be forceful and charge the leaders of the confederacy with treason or was it better not to go full out and have this show the mercy of the north and bring about healing of this nation. Remember, Lee was probably the most respected military man in the nation. Not easy to execute someone you were friendly with and respected. Perhaps it was better that this show of mercy was the start of the healing of a nation. The decision can be questioned for sure. Was it the right thing or the wrong thing is a matter up for debate.

 

[Pirata]

Grant intervened on Lee's behalf. I had a read much about in Grant's memoirs and Lee's biography.

Here is a good piece that describes much of it.

http://www.civilwarprofiles.com/grant-protects-lee-from-treason-trial/
.

 

[HALL85]

Excellent post, cern. The only part I disagree with is the statues. If they are allowed to be made non-existent, the books and documentaries will be next. If Lee and Co. were traitors, why weren't they hanged? Why have the statues stood for centuries? Why tear them down now?

As I said before, I would leave it up to the community to make that decision. You can't erase history and at the end of the day a statue is just an object of commemeration; they were put up by the community and should be taken down by the community if they think it's the right thing to do.

 

[HALL85]

As a footnote, if you've ever been to Gettysburg, there are both Union and Confederate statues, however there has been a historic chess game as to where they stand. Since it is in the North, you can imagine how that has played out. Confederate statues in many cases are placed only as far as they advanced in certain battles and are much less prominent.

 

[Pirata]

I am of the opinion that no one should have went to counter protest and let these idiot racists do their little pathetic March with no one covering them in the media nor anyone watching them.

Well said.

Not sure why we need to bash Trump, though. Even the mother of the slain woman thanked him for his words.

The Antifa showed up with clubs, bats, helmets, mace etc, I don't think we have the full story on how the two groups ended up encountering each other. They should put both groups on a barge and send it to North Korea.

Not sure why we have allowed the statues and confederate flag in the South. They were rebels. The rebellion was put down. Ever notice how we don't have statues of Rommel or Cornwallis hanging around.

If Fields act was pre-mediated, he should get the death penalty. However, there is evidence surfacing that he did not accelerate the vehicle until after he was struck by a counter-protester. He will be likely be claiming self-defence. OJ here we come.

 

[Pirata]

As a footnote, if you've ever been to Gettysburg, there are both Union and Confederate statues, however there has been a historic chess game as to where they stand.

Gettysburg is a place all Americans should visit.

Regarding the monuments, I think it is pretty straightforward. All the Confederate monuments are along the Confederate lines and Union monuments are along the Union lines. Typical placement is where that particular unit was during the battle.

Here is a link to pictures of the New Jersey monuments. https://goo.gl/ryJ6ak

I believe Lee is the only Southern monument of a person and his is a part of the Virginia monument and not just for him. The rest of the people monuments are of Northern Officers. I believe you had to a general to be considered and there is one or two exceptions to that.

The rest of the monuments are States and individual units. The monuments were paid for by various fund raisers of the units and other military organizations and societies. Pennsylvania has the largest and is actual a structure that you can ascend.

 

[Section112]

Not sure why we have allowed the statues and confederate flag in the South. They were rebels. The rebellion was put down. Ever notice how we don't have statues of Rommel or Cornwallis hanging around.

You make a very good point and I totally agree on the flag too. With that said I have seen where an enemy or the party that lost is respectfully covered in a monument. If you have ever visited Pearl Harbor which is also a sacred burial ground, they pay homage to the Japanese attack in how precise and well carried out it was. The difference may be that there are no statues of any Japanese officers though.

 

[Merge]

Worth watching. Scary times.

 

[Pirate19001]

Not sure why we need to bash Trump, though. Even the mother of the slain woman thanked him for his words.

We need to bash Trump because it took him days to condemn White Supremacists and Neo-Nazis. When elected it gave these people, part of his base, a legitimate voice. Hes so quick to fire a tweet about anything else- why couldn't he respond about this so passionately? Its because he dosent want to lose their support.

 

[Merge]

We need to bash Trump because it took him days to condemn White Supremacists and Neo-Nazis. When elected it gave these people, part of his base, a legitimate voice. Hes so quick to fire a tweet about anything else- why couldn't he respond about this so passionately? Its because he dosent want to lose their support.

and he is back out today talking about both sides. He is legitimizing white supremacists! It is disgusting.

 

[Pirata]

Obama posted three fitting Tweets regarding the situation. All are quotes from Nelson Mandela.

I applaud him for taking the high ground.

 

[cernjSHU]

Merge thanks for posting the Vice video. Interesting on the street view. Pirata thanks for posting the Obama tweets. Juxtapose those tweets to the statements of Trump.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Obama posted three fitting Tweets regarding the situation. All are quotes from Nelson Mandela.

I applaud him for taking the high ground.

I agree with his tweets. But it's funny I don't remember him putting his foot down on the chants of What do we want? Dead cops. When do we want them? Now

 

[Pirate19001]

Klansman David Duke is literally thanking the President. Its the MSM though!

Its disgusting how this is acceptable to so many people.

 

[Section112]

Scary times for sure!

 

[cernjSHU]

View embedded media

Klansman David Duke is literally thanking the President. Its the MSM though!

Its disgusting how this is acceptable to so many people.

The KKK, Nazis and White Natuonalists all think Trump is with their side and that's all you really need to know.

 

[Section112]

The KKK, Nazis and White Natuonalists all think Trump is with their side and that's all you really need to know.

Yup! He is toast in the primaries for sure if he lasts that long.

 

[HALL85]

View embedded media

Klansman David Duke is literally thanking the President. Its the MSM though!

Its disgusting how this is acceptable to so many people.

Who finds this acceptable?

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

The KKK, Nazis and White Natuonalists all think Trump is with their side and that's all you really need to know.

Yeah and BLM chanting "What do we want? Dead Cops. When do we want them? Now" was being invited to the White House. Where was the uproar on that. However none of this is cause by President Trump or President Obama. It's about the people. People looking for the Presidents to create change are looking at the wrong person. They need to look in the mirror. Regular people make change. People cannot sit across the table and have a discussion to iron out their problems. People can't look each other in the eye and have a serious conversation. I'll bet most of those protesters are more comfortable texting than talking. So the fact we can't look each other in the eye and discuss the Confederate flag, the fact we can't discuss the statues, the fact we have no respect for other people leads to violence. We're supposed to be the most advanced country in the world and the actions we've seen over the last 5 years have made us look immature, weak, and childish.

 

[Merge]

Yeah and BLM chanting "What do we want? Dead Cops. When do we want them? Now" was being invited to the White House.

BLM was not a movement that wanted dead cops. Did some protestors go over the line? Absolutely, but the movement was created because some people believe that black peoples are being killed unjustly without consequence. You can debate those ideas but I don't think you can compare them to white nationalists who just hate anyone who isn't white and Jewish people.

While some members of BLM are surely radical types, that doesn't make them a radical group and it doesn't compare with what we are seeing from white nationalists.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

BLM was not a movement that wanted dead cops. Did some protestors go over the line? Absolutely, but the movement was created because some people believe that black peoples are being killed unjustly without consequence. You can debate those ideas but I don't think you can compare them to white nationalists who just hate anyone who isn't white and Jewish people.

While some members of BLM are surely radical types, that doesn't make them a radical group and it doesn't compare with what we are seeing from white nationalists.

Then how come nobody ever made a statement to say that's not what our organization is about. How come nobody told those people to get the hell out of our movement? If you create a movement and people are joining your movement and moving your movement in a radical position you have the choice to make a statement or let them turn your movement in a violent direction. There was never a statement calling out that behavior. The greatest movement leader Dr King, Jr would have never let anything so disgusting as calling for dead cops be associated to his movement. BLM did nothing to separate themselves from those radicals.

As I said none of that matters if we want change. Change comes from regular people. These movements are cults on both sides. It doesn't take much to be nice to people. You just have to make the choice to do it. In our world today, people expect everyone should be nice to them, but they can do to others how they please. So many people have the "it's all about me" belief system. It's sad.

 

[Pirate19001]

Who finds this acceptable?

Anyone who dosent openly condem White Nationalism and Nazisim, or hides behind partisan politics implicitly finds it acceptable.

 

[Merge]

Then how come nobody ever made a statement to say that's not what our organization is about. How come nobody told those people to get the hell out of our movement? If you create a movement and people are joining your movement and moving your movement in a radical position you have the choice to make a statement or let them turn your movement in a violent direction.

They have.

Just one example.
http://time.com/4400330/st-paul-protests-philando-castile-black-lives-matter/

 

[HALL85]

Anyone who dosent openly condem White Nationalism and Nazisim, or hides behind partisan politics implicitly finds it acceptable.

Bingo!

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

They have.

Just one example.
http://time.com/4400330/st-paul-protests-philando-castile-black-lives-matter/

That's one chapters leader. The national leaders didn't denounce it. If you go by that logic, it's no issue that Trump didn't call out the white nationalists, KKK, Neo-Nazi's because Ivanka did.

 

[shu09]

The KKK, Nazis and White Natuonalists all think Trump is with their side and that's all you really need to know.

What that idiot David Duke didn't tell you is Trump condemned his group. Duke could be in the media, he leaves out the most important statement from the president.

 

[cernjSHU]

Sorry. No comparison between BLM and Nazis and the KKk. Anyone who compares tries to deflect.

A woman was killed protesting against the KKK and Neo Nazis and Trumo has not called her family. It's four days later. Disgraceful and end of story. There is no defense of the President.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Sorry. No comparison between BLM and Nazis and the KKk. Anyone who compares tries to deflect.

A woman was killed protesting against the KKK and Neo Nazis and Trumo has not called her family. It's four days later. Disgraceful and end of story. There is no defense of the President.

BLM and the KKK were started by Democrats. But in all seriousness, yes Trump should have spoken to the victims family. However we spend all of our time looking at what Trump's doing. We're looking back at what previous administrations did. At one point I had a coach who told me the only way I would get better was to be a thumb guy and not an index finger guy. When you point your index finger, you point it at others, when you point your thumb you point it at yourself. As people who want live peacefully with those around us, it's on us to be thumb people. It's on us to make change. Any law can be passed. All statues can be taken down. But if we don't make a conscious effort to change the way we treat each other, you can write all the laws and take those symbols down, the hatred and violence will still be there.

 

[HALL85]

BLM and the KKK were started by Democrats. But in all seriousness, yes Trump should have spoken to the victims family. However we spend all of our time looking at what Trump's doing. We're looking back at what previous administrations did. At one point I had a coach who told me the only way I would get better was to be a thumb guy and not an index finger guy. When you point your index finger, you point it at others, when you point your thumb you point it at yourself. As people who want live peacefully with those around us, it's on us to be thumb people. It's on us to make change. Any law can be passed. All statues can be taken down. But if we don't make a conscious effort to change the way we treat each other, you can write all the laws and take those symbols down, the hatred and violence will still be there.

Post of the year...who was your coach? Great line.

 

[cernjSHU]

BLM and the It's on us to make change. Any law can be passed. All statues can be taken down. But if we don't make a conscious effort to change the way we treat each other, you can write all the laws and take those symbols down, the hatred and violence will still be there.

This may be true. However, we need a President to lead by example. Trump has no knowledge or respect of history. He compares Robert E Lee to Thomas Jefferson. How dare he compare without historical context the man who wrote the Declaration of Independence and leader in the birth of our new nation with a man who tried to divide our country and was a traitor. Without a President to lead, there will be chaos.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

This may be true. However, we need a President to lead by example. Trump has no knowledge or respect of history. He compares Robert E Lee to Thomas Jefferson. How dare he compare without historical context the man who wrote the Declaration of Independence and leader in the birth of our new nation with a man who tried to divide our country and was a traitor. Without a President to lead, there will be chaos.

You are aware the man who wrote the Declaration of Independence owned hundreds of slaves? Nobody is perfect. You can rip apart anyone in our nations history. And 250 years from now people will be ripping us apart.

 

[cernjSHU]

You are aware the man who wrote the Declaration of Independence owned hundreds of slaves? Nobody is perfect. You can rip apart anyone in our nations history. And 250 years from now people will be ripping us apart.

I do realize that and I also take Jefferson in context in the time in history. No one is perfect, However, Jefferson was a man that was one of the creators of the nation. Btw, Jefferson's first draft of the Declaration of Independence spoke about the equality of slaves. He owned them but also at the time knew that slavery was morally wrong.
However, Lee was a traitor and fought against this nation. That is a huge difference. Remember, the South fought against the United States. The Confederates were all traitors.