Have you changed your opinion?
- Thread starter Halldan1
- Start date
It was never ok with me and never will be. No problem at all if you want to do it before or after, but kneeling during the national anthem is disrespectful. Same thing with talking or not removing your hat during the national anthem. The reason behind the kneeling is irrelevant and doesn’t override the simple respect you should show for the flag.
Who the hell cares what athletes think about social or political issues
Not OK with me, just not the right venue for that. It’s more disrespectful than it is protestable.
I was always fine with it. It's a peaceful protest to a very pressing nationwide issue.
A
anon_ezos2e9wn1ob0
Guest
Nope, stand and remove your cap for the National Anthem.
My strong preference is you always stand for the flag and remove your hat. With all that has occurred though I've softened my stance. I won't ever like it and will give it to my kids if they ever choose not to remove their hat or stand for the flag as long as I live. But if someone wants to make this their peaceful protest then I will not stand in their way or boo or have any reaction whatsoever (other than the smirk on my face that I am trying not to show) as it is their right and it is not harming anyone physically.
A question...what's more important...the flag itself ? or the freedom we have which is symbolized by that flag? My vote is for the actual freedom and not the symbol. And when some of us are denied that basic freedom I have zero problem with taking a knee during the anthem. I hope many many more athletes do it in as many sports as possible.
I'm against it those 2 minutes. I'm all for it the other 23 hours 58 minutes.
Just my 2 cents. The goal here is to persuade change. You don't persuade change by pissing off 50% of the country. This is a topic 95-99.9% of Americans rally around, however performing an action that brings up emotions of disturbance brings backlash when there really is no need for backlash on such a topic that an overwhelming majority of people get behind. Do it DURING the game when cameras have to be on. This is supposedly more important than the game itself.
Just my 2 cents. The goal here is to persuade change. You don't persuade change by pissing off 50% of the country. This is a topic 95-99.9% of Americans rally around, however performing an action that brings up emotions of disturbance brings backlash when there really is no need for backlash on such a topic that an overwhelming majority of people get behind. Do it DURING the game when cameras have to be on. This is supposedly more important than the game itself.
We've had some great debates in the past and I think you're very reasonable. The Catholic Church is not perfect. I think we can all agree on that. To ignite change would you be okay with people doing things that people view as negative to the cross? The cross is just a symbol. Living our life as Jesus wanted is more important. But in my mind, for as imperfect as the Catholic Church may be, anything negative done to the cross is unacceptable. Your thoughts?
I think acts like that would be sacrilegious and despicable; not just to Catholicism but to Christianity as a whole. I also don't think the analogy to the flag is a fair or accurate one.
No, my opinion hasn't changed. I understood why it was happening the first time and also understood why many were offended by it. That point is still there. There's not a monopoly on the point about the flag.
What's happening now is an almost bully mentality into agreeing with the kneel as the only way you can recognize the point. The kneeling is being used to basically out people who may not thing there's an issue with policing in this country. When Trump picked it up as low-hanging fruit in 2017, it totally obliterated any workable relationship. He's dug in and now athletes will to, against him, for not acknowledging in any way why they were kneeling.
Again, until top leadership engages and we work on these issues, this whole debate is pointless, IMO.
What's happening now is an almost bully mentality into agreeing with the kneel as the only way you can recognize the point. The kneeling is being used to basically out people who may not thing there's an issue with policing in this country. When Trump picked it up as low-hanging fruit in 2017, it totally obliterated any workable relationship. He's dug in and now athletes will to, against him, for not acknowledging in any way why they were kneeling.
Again, until top leadership engages and we work on these issues, this whole debate is pointless, IMO.
I think that it is a free country and as long as what is being is done is not physically hurting someone or threatening another's life ,everyone is entitled to protest how they so choose. There were individuals who came armed to city hall to protest social distancing and were characterized as "good people" by the President and was not met with anything close to the backlash Kapernick got. If you have a problem with kneeling before the flag you should also being criticizing those individual's actions. I think it begs to question what is the right way to protest? There have been a lot of well done peaceful protests, but there were some protests that were escalated to violence by police so what else are people supposed to do. Protests in nature are meant to make people feel uncomfortable in hopes that people will do more listening about important issues that we need to address as a nation.
There's a large part of this country who were brought up on King James Bible and Uncle Sam. Those people have equally strong feelings for all things God and all things country. So you may not see it as a fair analogy but to many people it is. To those people, something almost as important as their religion is being disrespected. Why should we value the kneelers opinion over those people? Or reverse the question why should we value their opinion over those who kneel? I hope we can respect both sides, those who choose to kneel and those who choose to walk out if they kneel because as I've tried to point out, their view on the flag is not far off from many peoples' view of the cross. Those who kneel are entitled to their views and those who choose to walk away feeling they saw an act of disrespect are equally entitled to their views. As I mentioned in my first post, I feel money will dictate all actions or non actions.
The Flag Goes By - Poem by Henry Holcomb Bennett
Hats off!
Along the street there comes
A blare of bugles, a ruffle of drums,
A dash of color beneath the sky:
Hats off!
The flag is passing by!
Blue and crimson and white it shines,
Over the steel-tipped, ordered lines.
Hats off!
The colors before us fly;
But more than the flag is passing by.
Sea-fights and land-fights, grim and great,
Fought to make and to save the State:
Weary marches and sinking ships;
Cheers of victory on dying lips;
Days of plenty and years of peace;
March of a strong land's swift increase;
Equal justice, right and law,
Stately honor and reverend awe;
Sign of a nation, great and strong
To ward her people from foreign wrong:
Pride and glory and honor,--all
Live in the colors to stand or fall.
Hats off!
Along the street there comes
A blare of bugles, a ruffle of drums;
And loyal hearts are beating high:
Hats off!
The flag is passing by!
Hats off!
Along the street there comes
A blare of bugles, a ruffle of drums,
A dash of color beneath the sky:
Hats off!
The flag is passing by!
Blue and crimson and white it shines,
Over the steel-tipped, ordered lines.
Hats off!
The colors before us fly;
But more than the flag is passing by.
Sea-fights and land-fights, grim and great,
Fought to make and to save the State:
Weary marches and sinking ships;
Cheers of victory on dying lips;
Days of plenty and years of peace;
March of a strong land's swift increase;
Equal justice, right and law,
Stately honor and reverend awe;
Sign of a nation, great and strong
To ward her people from foreign wrong:
Pride and glory and honor,--all
Live in the colors to stand or fall.
Hats off!
Along the street there comes
A blare of bugles, a ruffle of drums;
And loyal hearts are beating high:
Hats off!
The flag is passing by!
I have been against for the following reasons, but never thought was a big deal either.
I always feel you show respect to the flag & National Anthem, to show respect for the people who have sacrificed and died to protect this country and its freedoms, even if it does have flaws.
I also have no problems with protests, but do it on your own time, not at work while you are being paid to work. Lead protests on a Tuesday, kneel in the parking lot with fans 5 hours before game.
It can also lead to issues with teammates/co-workers if some people choose not to kneel for many reasons, another reason why I do not feel at work/on field protests are appropriate.
I always feel you show respect to the flag & National Anthem, to show respect for the people who have sacrificed and died to protect this country and its freedoms, even if it does have flaws.
I also have no problems with protests, but do it on your own time, not at work while you are being paid to work. Lead protests on a Tuesday, kneel in the parking lot with fans 5 hours before game.
It can also lead to issues with teammates/co-workers if some people choose not to kneel for many reasons, another reason why I do not feel at work/on field protests are appropriate.
they are both important. My opinion is simple, you don’t do something that is widely viewed as disrespectful just to protest a point. It doesn’t matter if your intention is to highlight something else, it’s wrong. Would everyone who’s okay with kneeling be okay if players threw up the middle finger to protest during the anthem? Somehow I think that would be received differently....
Are they not allowed opinions like the rest of us? Given that former athletes such as Jim Bunning, Steve Largent and Bill Bradley among others served as members of Congress, should they have had no say over political issues?
Our own Terry Dehere served on the City Council of Jersey City. Why should he have no voice over these issues if he chooses?
I would say no. First, sports are generally a distraction from the "real-world", but they obviously have become such a large part of American culture that athletes can call attention to issues. Standing for the national anthem is not a signatory that everything is right with a nation. If that were the case, I'd be sitting down as we stray further from our founding ideals just as much as I can recognize issues with abuse of power - more so on the inclination to protect the "bad eggs" within the ranks than the sheer number / disparate nature of cases.
Personally, I had a hard time listening to someone like Kaepernick when his protest starts with wearing socks depicting police officers as pigs. There clearly was no interest in having a meaningful dialogue or to actually do anything other than being seen/heard. His rumored salary demands just reinforced that notion - no good faith effort or any tangible thought on how to work on progress. I also don't automatically count donating money as contributing towards progress unless the places you are sending money have shown just that. Blanket donations funding bail for protesters does not resonate with me unless you are also being clear that violent protesters, aka rioters, are not eligible.
Personally, I had a hard time listening to someone like Kaepernick when his protest starts with wearing socks depicting police officers as pigs. There clearly was no interest in having a meaningful dialogue or to actually do anything other than being seen/heard. His rumored salary demands just reinforced that notion - no good faith effort or any tangible thought on how to work on progress. I also don't automatically count donating money as contributing towards progress unless the places you are sending money have shown just that. Blanket donations funding bail for protesters does not resonate with me unless you are also being clear that violent protesters, aka rioters, are not eligible.
Is a protest meant to make others uncomfortable or to create awareness and solicit support and sympathy for the cause? If the kneeling during the National Anthem distracts from the goal by turning a large segment of the population off, how does that help?
In a way the protest mirrors the Trump playbook. Appeal to and rile up the base of support and alienate those that have a strong visceral connection to the National Anthem.
In a way the protest mirrors the Trump playbook. Appeal to and rile up the base of support and alienate those that have a strong visceral connection to the National Anthem.
The flag is piece of fabric - that's all. It's value as a symbol is accrued through the ideals it represents, and if the promises it stands for are hollow for such a large segment of the citizenry it flies for, then it truly means nothing. It's just a piece of fabric no more worthy of veneration than a T-shirt.
It only becomes something real when the ideals it represents are realized for all.
It only becomes something real when the ideals it represents are realized for all.
Has anyone seen Kapernick at any protest marches? I've seen numerous politicians but not celebrities/musicians/pro athletes
"Not only are you being denied the fundamental rights symbolized by the flag, but now I'm going to tell you how and when you're allowed to express your displeasure over it."
Because they're citizens who have the right of free speech? Funny how now one ever asks, "Who cares what stock brokers think about social or political issues." It tends to only ever be a point of contention for athletes, first and foremost, followed by entertainers -- two groups with disproportionate percentages of high-earning black people.
Still confused about why people think kneeling in silence is disrespectful.
While it doesnt bother me at all, the idea that the anthem is played before sporting events seems odd to me. Why not before movies, plays and other forms of entertainment?
I'm still confused why so many social justice warriors went silent on China. Are these people told when to speak and when to shut up? Do they not care about the people of China or Hong Kong? It's still so strange.
Seton75 you bring up a good point, which led to a controversial moment that took place in summer of 1990 at then garden state arts center when sinead oconnor asked that the national anthem not play before her concert...in pro wrestling terms she got a lot of heel heat for it...i believe sinatra performed later that week and on mic said he woule kick her in her ass
Having conversations like this is part of the process and what many want to happen as that is bringing these issues to the forefront and constructive dialogue is a healthy thing. Talking about difficult issues is hard and we all need to respect each other's opinions agree or not. Your constant passive aggressive/sarcastic comments don't help advance any conversations at all in my opinion, but continue as you see fit.
