How could they dishonor our country.

[Merge]

All you libs here who never served now have your own alternate universe of Army protocol.

"We spoke to an Army National Guard spokesperson, who told us that there is “no expectation” relating to decorum for civilians or armed services members who are indoors during the Retreat ceremony, in any branch of the military. The President was in an airport hangar during the interview."

http://www.snopes.com/trump-retreat/


Up next: Merge and HansSolo will provide us all instruction on small unit tactics and close order drill.

Fair, but still doesn't address my the question I am wondering why it is ok that Trump, the CIC, never learned the protocol in how to respect the flag, but leads the charge against protesters saying they are disrespecting the flag.

If Obama had asked what it was, and then joked about it being for the ratings of his interviewer he would have been trashed by everyone on the right and you know it.

The reason I have a problem with Trump here is because this issue of protesters in the NFL kneeling was going away. Trump made it so much worse, but he clearly does not know how to respect the flag. Shep Smith called him out for it on Fox News. This is just red meat for his base.

Many of you here always said how divisive Obama was... how do you not see what Trump is doing?

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Fair, but still doesn't address my the question I am wondering why it is ok that Trump, the CIC, never learned the protocol in how to respect the flag, but leads the charge against protesters saying they are disrespecting the flag.

If Obama had asked what it was, and then joked about it being for the ratings of his interviewer he would have been trashed by everyone on the right and you know it.

The reason I have a problem with Trump here is because this issue of protesters in the NFL kneeling was going away. Trump made it so much worse, but he clearly does not know how to respect the flag. Shep Smith called him out for it on Fox News. This is just red meat for his base.

Many of you here always said how divisive Obama was... how do you not see what Trump is doing?

Is there a class for the CIC to take to learn protocol? Do you know for a fact every president before him learned protocol? Or do president's come in and spend time learning more about N. Korea type of issues than every possible protocol we have.

Absolutely the right would bash Obama if he did it. However that speaks to your point about divisiveness of both sides. The president whether it be Obama or Trump could be as divisive as possible, but it only works if the people let it. The people of our country are divisive and it's not the fault of either president. It's our own damn fault because nobody can engage in civil debate and willing to compromise an inch. Everyone's offended so damn easily, we have to worry about everyone's feelings. We're on pace to be fighting about whether or not peanut butter should be allowed in schools.

Politics in general is designed to be divisive. The national anthem is one of those few political items where it doesn't matter if you are democrat or republican you stand united for paying respect to a poltical symbol. Now that's gone too.

The NFL protest was never going away. The players were still doing it. Kaep still didn't have a job and that was constantly being talked about. I just don't see how you can say the problem was going away. It exploded after Trump's speech but to think it was going away is incorrect.

 

[Merge]

Is there a class for the CIC to take to learn protocol? Do you know for a fact every president before him learned protocol? Or do president's come in and spend time learning more about N. Korea type of issues than every possible protocol we have.

Just my opinion that the guy throwing gasoline on this fire should know the protocol.
I don't think that is unreasonable.

Everyone's offended so damn easily, we have to worry about everyone's feelings.

Exactly, like everyone getting so offended at someone protesting racial injustice by kneeling for the anthem.

he national anthem is one of those few political items where it doesn't matter if you are democrat or republican you stand united for paying respect to a poltical symbol.

but what if you feel that our country no longer holds the values the flag was intended to represent?

The NFL protest was never going away. The players were still doing it.

Some were, and probably would have continued to do so but over time it was and would have faded away without much noise. Now we had a high school marching band stop playing and walk away during the anthem last weekend. Trump made it so much worse.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Just my opinion that the guy throwing gasoline on this fire should know the protocol.
I don't think that is unreasonable.

I could say the same thing about Obama with healthcare. Do you think he really researched everything he needed to know about healthcare before he created and signed Obamacare? If he did and created what Bill Clinton calls "the craziest thing in the world" that's even worse. Personally I think Obamacare like all political things was purely about votes. How do you get the lower income people out to vote all of the time. Let's give them healthcare that Republicans will surely want to take away from them.

Exactly, like everyone getting so offended at someone protesting racial injustice by kneeling for the anthem.

Offended over God or Country is not something small.

but what if you feel that our country no longer holds the values the flag was intended to represent?

For it to no longer hold the values it represents something had to change...what changed? Nobody is promoting the idea of racial injustice or any injustice. Our country isn't perfect nor will it ever be. Did you know we have over 30 genders in this today's world? Can we say our flag doesn't repesent the values anymore because nobody has 30+ types of bathrooms? Are there bad people in the law enforcement profession? Yes. Should people protest the NFL because there are bad people in the NFL? There are bad doctors, lawyers, agents, financial advisors, etc. Because those people exist, doesn't mean our country has less values now than it did years ago. The opposite is true.

Some were, and probably would have continued to do so but over time it was and would have faded away without much noise. Now we had a high school marching band stop playing and walk away during the anthem last weekend. Trump made it so much worse.

No debating it, Trump made it worse. There was enough protestors during week 1 and 2 before Trump said anything to suggest the size of the protests were not getting smaller and not fading.

 

[Merge]

I could say the same thing about Obama with healthcare. Do you think he really researched everything he needed to know about healthcare before he created and signed Obamacare? If he did and created what Bill Clinton calls "the craziest thing in the world" that's even worse. Personally I think Obamacare like all political things was purely about votes. How do you get the lower income people out to vote all of the time. Let's give them healthcare that Republicans will surely want to take away from them.

Obama campaigned on healthcare reform. He invited debate on healthcare reform which lasted months. He used the guy who wrote the Massachusetts law to help write it. Why would you possibly use that as your analogy here?
And then using Clinton's out of context comment to call it a bad law? How can you comment that we are too divisive and then use the right wing talking point about Clinton's comment?

I can't comprehend how you can possibly make the connection to Obamacare being about votes. That doesn't make any sense at all. Did you see what happened in 2010? Democrats got a whooping and haven't recovered because of Obamacare.

Offended over God or Country is not something small.

So everyone is too quick to be offended... unless it is about the things that offend you?

For it to no longer hold the values it represents something had to change...what changed?

I don't think anything had to change. I think people are now being presented information they did not have in the past. Everyone has a video camera on them at all times and 10 years ago that was not the case. Now when someone like Eric Garner dies by a choke hold from a police officer, the entire country can actually see what happened.

It is not my place to tell someone when or why they can protest.
1st amendment was first for a reason.

 

[Pirata]

Merge, I appreciate your measured response and enjoy the discussion vs arguing. We have different viewpoints on some things and that is OK.

Except for a thing or two, I completely agree with your overall response to my last post.

Fair, but still doesn't address my the question I am wondering why it is OK that Trump, the CIC, never learned the protocol in how to respect the flag, but leads the charge against protesters saying they are disrespecting the flag

When I first saw the retreat incident, my reaction was that he was indoors and I didn't see what the fuss was. It has been many years and so I tried to look up the regulations to be sure, but they are vague. Then I found the Snopes post that confirmed my suspicion about being indoors. Hence there was no protocol faux pas. You could argue that his comments to Hannity were off base but then again, we don't know if he just "heard some bugle music" or he consciously heard Retreat and failed to recognize it. I give him a pass because he was doing a live interview on national TV in front of a live audience. Can we expect that he actually heard the tune?

I also think the Retreat protocol is relatively obscure compared to standing for the anthem at a football game. I am sure it was not high on the list of the many briefings he received when he took office. But to your point, the optics are terrible, I agree.

If Obama had asked what it was, and then joked about it being for the ratings of his interviewer he would have been trashed by everyone on the right and you know it.

I agree completely and I get annoyed when conservatives and right wingers do that. You may recall the big deal they made about Obama not putting his hand on his heart during the anthem. The US Flag Code calls for that but it over time that has become an archaic rule. To call Obama on it was not fair. But then again, no one is fair with partisan BS.

The reason I have a problem with Trump here is because this issue of protesters in the NFL kneeling was going away. Trump made it so much worse, but he clearly does not know how to respect the flag. Shep Smith called him out for it on Fox News. This is just red meat for his base.

I agree. I too have a problem with Trump getting involved in petty crap. I had the same problem with Obama's beer summit. I agree with he Red Meat but also think he does it to draw attention away from other issues. Its like the laser pen you shine on the wall and the cat jumps after it. Move the pen and cat runs across the room to catch the light. The MSM is chasing the light and Trump knows it.

Many of you here always said how divisive Obama was... how do you not see what Trump is doing?

They both had/have their moments of divisiveness and unity. IMHO Trump went too far calling for the NFL to fire the players etc. Again, I agree with Red Meat angle. I think if pressed for a statement, Trump could have issued a much more measured one and moved on. I would love to be a fly on the wall in the communications meetings. I am bothered by Trumps foot shooting because it takes away from progress on the bigger issues.




Having said all this, I think Kaapernick picked the wrong forum to stage his protest. It overshadowed his message. As well, his message was not clear and has morphed. He started with Cops and now has broadened to social injustice.

I mentioned Mother Teresa and Gandhi in a previous post. They chose a life of poverty and in doing so were very effective. It is hard to listen to Kaap, a millionaire unemployed quarterback whose sole act to help the oppressed is to sit (and now kneel). Yeah he gave $1M in matching funds but that is a drop in the bucket. I don't hate the guy and wish him no harm, but he does not exactly move me to concern and action based on his approach and his actions.

Hans Solo said something to the effect, "buy yeah, he has gotten people talking about it". I don;t think that is true. Kaap's actions have not sparked any positive discussion or actions. (and yes, Trump's response has not helped either).

 

[Merge]

When I first saw the retreat incident, my reaction was that he was indoors and I didn't see what the fuss was.

Neither did I. It doesn't bother me outside of the red meat he is throwing to his base. If he wasn't leading the charge, I wouldn't have mentioned it on here at all.

Having said all this, I think Kaapernick picked the wrong forum to stage his protest. It overshadowed his message. As well, his message was not clear and has morphed. He started with Cops and now has broadened to social injustice.

Honestly, I don't think he intended to become a symbol of a movement. Here is how I think it played out for him. He was probably just watching the news and reading stories online developing frustration over months, feeling that the country is in a place where liberty means something very different if you were born black vs being born white. He wants to do something and doesn't know what to do and decides that sitting will send a message. His message to me was always about oppression of people of color, not just about cops. His first sentence he uttered on the issue was about oppression.

I mentioned Mother Teresa and Gandhi in a previous post. They chose a life of poverty and in doing so were very effective. It is hard to listen to Kaap, a millionaire unemployed quarterback whose sole act to help the oppressed is to sit (and now kneel). Yeah he gave $1M in matching funds but that is a drop in the bucket.

Not sure that is really fair. He gave up his career and a ton of money because he didn't want to stand for a country which he feels oppresses black people. He knew it could cost him his job and his endorsements. I'm not sure he ever wanted to be compared to Mother Teresa and Gandhi... I think he wanted to use his celebrity status to raise awareness. I won't argue that there may have been better ways to accomplish what he was aiming for... but it's not my protest. It was his and if he feels that is the best he can do. Who am I to question?

Hans Solo said something to the effect, "buy yeah, he has gotten people talking about it". I don;t think that is true. Kaap's actions have not sparked any positive discussion or actions. (and yes, Trump's response has not helped either).

Time will tell. Like I said, I thought the issue would have faded away over time although Trumps comments appear to have changed the path we are on. A German soccer team took a knee last weekend to show solidarity with the NFL players. A high school marching band walked off the field during the anthem. We are not quite done with the conversation yet. Our history classes may end up talking about kaepernick in 20-30 years, but he also may be a completely insignificant piece if the conversation is only about the flag.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Obama campaigned on healthcare reform. He invited debate on healthcare reform which lasted months. He used the guy who wrote the Massachusetts law to help write it. Why would you possibly use that as your analogy here?
And then using Clinton's out of context comment to call it a bad law? How can you comment that we are too divisive and then use the right wing talking point about Clinton's comment?

I can't comprehend how you can possibly make the connection to Obamacare being about votes. That doesn't make any sense at all. Did you see what happened in 2010? Democrats got a whooping and haven't recovered because of Obamacare.

I could care less what Obama campaigned on. Clinton's comment was not just a right wing talking point, it was a talking point on every news media station. They were discussing it as much as the right was. I don't see how you can spin that as taking it out of context. I don't think he was saying good job Barack, thanks for making people busting their ass pay double and get half the coverage so that 25 million other American's can have insurance. It's possible he can love the ideal of having more American's having more health insurance but think this was a dumb way to go about it.

So everyone is too quick to be offended... unless it is about the things that offend you?

The point was we have a fight for every little thing these days. That doesn't need to be.

I don't think anything had to change. I think people are now being presented information they did not have in the past. Everyone has a video camera on them at all times and 10 years ago that was not the case. Now when someone like Eric Garner dies by a choke hold from a police officer, the entire country can actually see what happened.

It is not my place to tell someone when or why they can protest.
1st amendment was first for a reason.

I can buy the change in technology as an argument. It's just sad when we focus on the Eric Garner case gets 10 times more the attention than the Miosotis Familia case.

The 1st amendment is 1st. But with great freedom comes great resposibility. The 1st amendment is dangerous without responsibility. Can you imagine someone going up to someone using bad language because it's their 1st amendment right? It is not anyone's place to say when or why someone can protest. It's not anyone's place to say what some can and cannot say. Yet people get offended by white supremacists, black lives matter, kneeling? Maybe because they are not getting their message across responsibly. It is perfectly legal for people to promote white supremacy, but is beyond irresponsible. Responsibility matters.

 

[Merge]

I don't think he was saying good job Barack, thanks for making people busting their ass pay double and get half the coverage so that 25 million other American's can have insurance.

Clinton was pitching Hillary's plan to improve Obamacare. He wasn't saying Obamacare is the craziest thing in the world. He was saying that a part of it didn't work. I think everyone agrees with that.

Here is a quote from Clinton a day later, a little clearer but was clearly his point with the prior discussion.

"I think [Obama’s] health care bill has been a remarkable success for 25 million people, and for getting rid of pre-existing conditions, and the problems with it show why the president was right to recommend a public option in the first place because the only real problems I can see with it are small business people and individual working people just above the subsidy line are having. Why is that? Because they’re small, they’re independent, they do have any market power vis a vis the insurance companies, and that’s why Hillary said, “The change we need is not to wreck this thing and repeal it. It’s done too much good. The change we need is to create an affordable option for the small business people and the working people who are not covered — that’s what the public opinion is about.”

The point was we have a fight for every little thing these days. That doesn't need to be.

Right, but you are the on the side offended by those who take a knee.
It seems like you are saying people should be so easily offended, unless they are offended by something you agree with.

I can buy the change in technology as an argument. It's just sad when we focus on the Eric Garner case gets 10 times more the attention than the Miosotis Familia case.

I agree.

Yet people get offended by white supremacists, black lives matter, kneeling? Maybe because they are not getting their message across responsibly.

Other black people were arrested for sitting in the wrong part of a bus before Rosa Parks.
Their message didn't come across "responsibly" at the time. People were probably more upset that some white people were late for dinner that day than the fact that such a system was insane. Rosa Parks was a person that others decided could be the face for a movement.

At the core of what taking a knee means, it is people who believe there is systematic oppression against people of color.

I am not distracted by how they are protesting to understand and discuss the issue. I don't need someone to protest at the "right" time (whenever that is) before I am willing to listen.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

I am not distracted by how they are protesting to understand and discuss the issue. I don't need someone to protest at the "right" time (whenever that is) before I am willing to listen.

I’m not going to address much of the other statements you made as you picked and chose sentences to quote me on then left out the part of the quote where Clinton basically said people actually working and busting their ass are getting screwed while the people who sit on their ass get insurance. Minor mishap I guess. Lol

This quote struck me as odd. Do you think we should not be distracted by white supremacy and focus solely on the issue of keeping statues if that is what these scumbags are protesting?

 

[Merge]

hen left out the part of the quote where Clinton basically said people actually working and busting their ass are getting screwed while the people who sit on their ass get insurance. Minor mishap I guess. Lol

No. You got caught up in a quote rather than understanding his message.
Clinton's message was clear and it was not an indictment of Obamacare.

Similarly, kneeling is not about the flag. It is about racial injustice.

White supremacists don't care about a statue. They want statues that symbolize their racist beliefs.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

No. You got caught up in a quote rather than understanding his message.
Clinton's message was clear and it was not an indictment of Obamacare.

Similarly, kneeling is not about the flag. It is about racial injustice.

White supremacists don't care about a statue. They want statues that symbolize their racist beliefs.

He said it's great then said how it works is the craziest thing in the world.

Wouldn’t that still be their first amendment right? I actually haven't heard anyone say that they want statues that symbolize their racist beliefs. You are believing what you want to believe not what they have actually said. Listen to the message and not the actions. LOL This is your entire argument because I am offended by kneeling turned around. I will agree to disagree sticking with my opinion that neither group is using the first amendment responsibly.

 

[Merge]

I think you have missed my point.

Yes. They both have the right to free speech.
YOU (the collective you) have the choice of whether to be offended or not.

You commented that people are too quick to be offended, but you are offended by kneeling.
I am not offended by their kneeling because beyond their action of kneeling, their protest is about racial injustice. Is it the absolute best way to protest? Probably not, but being peaceful and taking a knee towards the flag doesn't bother me at all especially after they changed from sitting to kneeling as a way to show respect. Their intent was not to offend.

I am offended by white supremacists marching in our streets with torches because their message is about hating anyone who isn't a white christian. Their intent is hatred.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

I think you have missed my point.

Yes. They both have the right to free speech.
YOU (the collective you) have the choice of whether to be offended or not.

You commented that people are too quick to be offended, but you are offended by kneeling.
I am not offended by their kneeling because beyond their action of kneeling, their protest is about racial injustice. Is it the absolute best way to protest? Probably not, but being peaceful and taking a knee towards the flag doesn't bother me at all especially after they changed from sitting to kneeling as a way to show respect. Their intent was not to offend.

I am offended by white supremacists marching in our streets with torches because their message is about hating anyone who isn't a white christian. Their intent is hatred.

Now intent matters? It didn't matter to you based on Trump's flag protocol.

Here's my issue with it more than just kneeling with the flag. There are more NFL players with a history of violence against women and sexual assault in the NFL than there should be. They can help social injustice problems by just dealing with the guy next to them. Instead they high five that guy. They have so many problems within themselves they don't address but they point out the rest of the world's imperfections. It's as crazy as Trump deflecting attention off the inability to repeal Obamacare. The extreme vast majority of cops are good cops. I'm willing to bet there are more cops killed a year than there are social injustice deaths by a lot. Neither is acceptable, but let's face the facts these cops are more likely to die protecting us than they are to commit a Eric Garner situation.

 

[HALL85]

Now intent matters? It didn't matter to you based on Trump's flag protocol.

Here's my issue with it more than just kneeling with the flag. There are more NFL players with a history of violence against women and sexual assault in the NFL than there should be. They can help social injustice problems by just dealing with the guy next to them. Instead they high five that guy. They have so many problems within themselves they don't address but they point out the rest of the world's imperfections. It's as crazy as Trump deflecting attention off the inability to repeal Obamacare. The extreme vast majority of cops are good cops. I'm willing to bet there are more cops killed a year than there are social injustice deaths by a lot. Neither is acceptable, but let's face the facts these cops are more likely to die protecting us than they are to commit a Eric Garner situation.

+100...I also think having CK as the leader of the cause has been more problematic: 1) Because I question the character of a guy that promotes communism (and a highly repressive government) and wears his police/piglet socks and 2) For a college graduate, can't seem to articulate exactly what the call to action for his cause is. Kind of like Anthony Weiner was leading the cause to protect our children from pedophiles?

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

2) For a college graduate, can't seem to articulate exactly what the call to action for his cause is.

I’m going to try and be fair and balanced. On one side there are brilliant people in their fields with graduate degrees and beyond that can’t articulate the simplest of messages. So I can kind of give him a pass there. But I listen to a lot of college sports radio. Obviously while not the main topic these days the UNC scandal was talked about and one former athlete said every school has easy courses that athletes hear about and gravitate towards. You have to wonder what is the possible number of NFL players who took real courses vs these really easy courses just to be eligible. Did CK take a lot of classes understanding social change and the causes and effects of all actions and reactions. Maybe he did. Maybe he didn’t. You just have to wonder.

 

[Pirata]

Regarding the method: I think it is disrespectful but I am not offended by it.

To Merges' point, we can listen/hear the protest despite the method.

And so I am all ears (except for my thingy, that's a foot).

I hope we can move past the flag issue and progress to Kaap issuing some better definition of his protest.

 

[Merge]

Now intent matters? It didn't matter to you based on Trump's flag protocol.

Yep. Intent does matter. Trumps intention was to further divide us on this issue.
As I said above, his action didn't bother me.. I just think that the guy leading the charge against kneeling because it is disrespecting our flag should know how to respect our flag.

Here's my issue with it more than just kneeling with the flag. There are more NFL players with a history of violence against women and sexual assault in the NFL than there should be. They can help social injustice problems by just dealing with the guy next to them. Instead they high five that guy.

Clearly our country should be doing more to fight against sexual assault everywhere. I mean we just elected a president with more allegations of sexual assault than anyone in the NFL has. It is just poor logic to say that they can't protest anything they feel passionate about because there are other problems. Should churches and church members do nothing unless they are also fighting against pedophilia and child abuse cover ups in the church?

The extreme vast majority of cops are good cops. I'm willing to bet there are more cops killed a year than there are social injustice deaths by a lot. Neither is acceptable, but let's face the facts these cops are more likely to die protecting us than they are to commit a Eric Garner situation.

I absolutely agree. I read somewhere recently that around 5% of cops are causing around 80% of complaints.
That doesn't mean we can't ask how we are handling those 5% and if the justice system is working to ensure those 5% are held liable for their actions?

 

[Merge]

Regarding the method: I think it is disrespectful but I am not offended by it.
To Merges' point, we can listen/hear the protest despite the method.
And so I am all ears (except for my thingy, that's a foot).
I hope we can move past the flag issue and progress to Kaap issuing some better definition of his protest.

Eric Reid clarified in his op ed. They are protesting systemic oppression against people of color, police brutality, and the criminal justice system.
I think that has been pretty clear. Unless you are looking for more of a call to action? I'm not sure they have one.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Yep. Intent does matter. Trumps intention was to further divide us on this issue.
As I said above, his action didn't bother me.. I just think that the guy leading the charge against kneeling because it is disrespecting our flag should know how to respect our flag.

Come on do you think Kaepernick leading the charge is on top of all racial and social injustices? He's the guy that led the charge. No way would I expect him to know every little thing. Let's say Trump did disrespect the flag in that moment. If he was told that was disrespectful, do you think he would continue doing it?

Clearly our country should be doing more to fight against sexual assault everywhere. I mean we just elected a president with more allegations of sexual assault than anyone in the NFL has. It is just poor logic to say that they can't protest anything they feel passionate about because there are other problems. Should churches and church members do nothing unless they are also fighting against pedophilia and child abuse cover ups in the church?

Again there are people who point index fingers and those who point thumbs. Do we need reforms in many areas? Yes. I haven't seen anyone offer a real solution once. Better police training. No crap. What kind of police training? Do they need better equipment that might possibly tell if a suspect has metal on them? It's just those guys are bad guys. And obvious vague things that could be done with no regard to what the curriculum should be, what it's going to cost, who's paying. This is just finger pointing right now. If people have real solutions to real problems with how it's going to work from start to finish and everything associated with it, I'm all for it. I haven't seen it yet. Have you?

 

[SPK145]

Let’s not forget that Kaepernick is about the flag:

“I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses Black people and people of color.”

 

[Merge]

Come on do you think Kaepernick leading the charge is on top of all racial and social injustices? He's the guy that led the charge. No way would I expect him to know every little thing. Let's say Trump did disrespect the flag in that moment. If he was told that was disrespectful, do you think he would continue doing it?

I gave the analogy previously of a boss yelling about someone violating the dress code while he was violating the dress code. That is how this feels to me.

Again there are people who point index fingers and those who point thumbs. Do we need reforms in many areas? Yes. I haven't seen anyone offer a real solution once. Better police training. No crap. What kind of police training? Do they need better equipment that might possibly tell if a suspect has metal on them? It's just those guys are bad guys. And obvious vague things that could be done with no regard to what the curriculum should be, what it's going to cost, who's paying. This is just finger pointing right now. If people have real solutions to real problems with how it's going to work from start to finish and everything associated with it, I'm all for it. I haven't seen it yet. Have you?

Show me any movement that started with a list of solutions.
They don't start that way. First step is to raise awareness.

 

[Merge]

Let’s not forget that Kaepernick is about the flag:

“I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses Black people and people of color.”

Go on... And then what happened?
Nate Boyer wrote an open letter to Kaepernick. Kaepernick then invited him to meet to talk, and then modified his protest in an effort to show respect to those who serve.

 

[HALL85]

Show me any movement that started with a list of solutions.
They don't start that way. First step is to raise awareness.

This "awareness thing" is over a year old...and we're not talking about splitting the atom. When do you think one of the kneelers will give us a hint of a solution?

 

[Pirata]

This "awareness thing" is over a year old...and we're not talking about splitting the atom. When do you think one of the kneelers will give us a hint of a solution?

I'd be happy with a hint of what the protest is!

We are told it is not about the flag. It is not about the cops.

Rumor has it is is about oppression and/or social injustice. That is a broad topic. We hear a rumor that is is about white people colluding to oppress blacks.

I would like to hear Kaap's further definition before we assume anything or respond.

 

[Merge]

I'd be happy with a hint of what the protest is!

We are told it is not about the flag. It is not about the cops.

Rumor has it is is about oppression and/or social injustice. That is a broad topic. We hear a rumor that is is about white people colluding to oppress blacks.

I would like to hear Kaap's further definition before we assume anything or respond.

"
We spoke at length about many of the issues that face our community, including systemic oppression against people of color, police brutality and the criminal justice system. We also discussed how we could use our platform, provided to us by being professional athletes in the N.F.L., to speak for those who are voiceless. After hours of careful consideration, and even a visit from Nate Boyer, a retired Green Beret and former N.F.L. player, we came to the conclusion that we should kneel, rather than sit, the next day during the anthem as a peaceful protest. We chose to kneel because it’s a respectful gesture."

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/opinion/colin-kaepernick-football-protests.html

 

[Pirata]

Thanks for posting that.

"systemic oppression against people of color, police brutality and the criminal justice system."

I would love to hear more about the "systemic oppression against people of color".

I really cannot take the police brutality thing serious. the number just don't add up.

Again, I don't want to assume I know what he is trying to say. I'd rather hear him explain it.

Related to one poster who questioned Kaap's educational background, I wonder if he has done much reading on history, economics, capitalism, etc. Maybe he should start with the Grapes of Wrath.

 

[Merge]

This "awareness thing" is over a year old...and we're not talking about splitting the atom. When do you think one of the kneelers will give us a hint of a solution?

That is a fair question. I have no idea. It is not my protest.
We have already implemented additional training procedures and expanded use of police body cameras since the protest began, but I would like to see someone like Trump invite some protesters to meet and discuss the issue. Be open minded to their concerns and requests. I think that would go a long way and possibly even end the kneeling entirely.

 

[HALL85]

That is a fair question. I have no idea. It is not my protest.
We have already implemented additional training procedures and expanded use of police body cameras since the protest began, but I would like to see someone like Trump invite some protesters to meet and discuss the issue. Be open minded to their concerns and requests. I think that would go a long way and possibly even end the kneeling entirely.

Those things you mentioned had nothing to do with the protests. It's not my protest either, whatever the protest is about. But what has CK done to earn that meeting with the president?

 

[Merge]

Those things you mentioned had nothing to do with the protests. It's not my protest either, whatever the protest is about. But what has CK done to earn that meeting with the president?

He took a knee for a cause he believed in which cost him his job and started a national debate. White the debate unfortunately wasn't as targeted as I am sure he would have liked - The president thought there was enough to weigh in and criticize the protest, and the NFL.

You criticized Obama for his leadership here countless times. This is now Trump's issue. He made it his issue. It isn't so much Kaepernick that has done something to deserve the meeting, it is that Trump did something which deserves that he host a meeting. It is time for him to step in and do something productive.

 

[HALL85]

He took a knee for a cause he believed in which cost him his job and started a national debate. White the debate unfortunately wasn't as targeted as I am sure he would have liked - The president thought there was enough to weigh in and criticize the protest, and the NFL.

You criticized Obama for his leadership here countless times. This is now Trump's issue. He made it his issue. It isn't so much Kaepernick that has done something to deserve the meeting, it is that Trump did something which deserves that he host a meeting. It is time for him to step in and do something productive.

It's an issue that Trump should've never weighed in on to begin with as well as an issue that does not require any meeting with Kaepernick.

What does Obama have to do with this? Can't I criticize Obama's leadership and Trump's leadership? Are they mutually exclusive?

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

That is a fair question. I have no idea. It is not my protest.
We have already implemented additional training procedures and expanded use of police body cameras since the protest began, but I would like to see someone like Trump invite some protesters to meet and discuss the issue. Be open minded to their concerns and requests. I think that would go a long way and possibly even end the kneeling entirely.

I think meeting with the protesters is a crazy idea. In order to debate with the president and other politicians you better have all your i's dotted and t's crossed. NFL players are not negotiators. There's a reason these guys hire agents. If they could negotiate their contracts themselves they would save a lot of money. If they had a great representative step up and negotiate on their behalf maybe we could get somewhere. The NFL was an unstoppable force and now for the first time in a long time they have major concerns about advertisers not receiving what they were promised, viewership down with no election to blame, and good portion of the population unhappy with the players. President vs NFL so far has been a clear win for the president. In the grand scheme of things thats a small win, but for this issue you don't want to go NFL players vs president.

This is where I think it's crazy these athletes don't show up to Washington where they would actually have a chance to talk to the President and maybe they get nothing done that day but they get an opportunity to make an arrangement to meet with him and their people to work on something. Instead let's tweet the president's a bum. That doesn't help with progress.

 

[Merge]

I think meeting with the protesters is a crazy idea. In order to debate with the president and other politicians you better have all your i's dotted and t's crossed. NFL players are not negotiators. There's a reason these guys hire agents. If they could negotiate their contracts themselves they would save a lot of money. If they had a great representative step up and negotiate on their behalf maybe we could get somewhere.

I don't think this needs to be a debate. It should be symbolic more than anything else.
President would just need to listen to their concerns, tell them you want to help restore their pride in the flag again. Offer a task force to help address their concerns with an action plan by a certain date. In my opinion that would be the most "presidential" thing Trump can do and the protests would fade away.

The NFL was an unstoppable force and now for the first time in a long time they have major concerns about advertisers not receiving what they were promised, viewership down with no election to blame, and good portion of the population unhappy with the players.

I don't really think we can make them jump that is because of the protests though. Ratings for all sports are down including NASCAR - The most 'Merica sport we have. I actually heard Steve Young talking about this yesterday who had an interesting point about the millennial viewers who are growing up with Fantasy Football instead of developing an allegiance to a team and people are also consuming media in different ways since more and more people are cancelling their cable subscriptions.

President vs NFL so far has been a clear win for the president.

On the principle on kneeling, I agree. In practice where he is calling them son's of bitches and tweeting nonsense about it at 6:00 AM - This is not a good look for Trump at all.

 

[Merge]

I would love to hear more about the "systemic oppression against people of color".
I really cannot take the police brutality thing serious. the number just don't add up.

Since 2015 - Data from Washington post.
Unarmed people shot killed by police
Black = 67
White = 73

Total killed by police
Black - 675
White - 1341

Doesn't really jump out at you until you realize that are about 5x as many white people in the US as there are black people.

Also, I am assuming you are white?
It is hard not to recognize the privilege of being born white in the suburbs. I was a "rambunctious" teen rather than a "thug". I was caught with marijuana when I was 17. They took them and that was it. I ran away from police at parties. I have been pulled over 5 times and received 1 ticket. (4 white cops let me off with nothing) One of the times I was pulled over was for having window tints in Chatham on main street. I kept note of who was pulled over in Chatham on Main street (I lived on main street for two years) from then on and it was pretty much all black people. When I met my wife's cousins husband, a MD state police officer, for the first time he was boasting about pulling people over in his MD town because it was mostly white people and if black people were there, they "were probably up to something". Obviously anecdotal, but I think for most of my life I have taken for granted how easy it is to be white.

 

[HALL85]

Since 2015 - Data from Washington post.
Unarmed people shot killed by police
Black = 67
White = 73

Total killed by police
Black - 675
White - 1341

Doesn't really jump out at you until you realize that are about 5x as many white people in the US as there are black people.

Also, I am assuming you are white?
It is hard not to recognize the privilege of being born white in the suburbs. I was a "rambunctious" teen rather than a "thug". I was caught with marijuana when I was 17. They took them and that was it. I ran away from police at parties. I have been pulled over 5 times and received 1 ticket. (4 white cops let me off with nothing) One of the times I was pulled over was for having window tints in Chatham on main street. I kept note of who was pulled over in Chatham on Main street (I lived on main street for two years) from then on and it was pretty much all black people. When I met my wife's cousins husband, a MD state police officer, for the first time he was boasting about pulling people over in his MD town because it was mostly white people and if black people were there, they "were probably up to something". Obviously anecdotal, but I think for most of my life I have taken for granted how easy it is to be white.

Every life is precious and I don't think there are many that aren't in favor of better trained and prepared law enforcement. I would be interested to see how those numbers have been trending which would show if it is getting better or worse.

I think when you also take into consideration the shear number of police/public interactions which are probably in the tens of thousands each year (and consider that a good number are confrontational), it doesn't strike me as big an issue that is being portrayed. Contrast that with the 52,000 opioid deaths that is trending like a hockey stick. That's an issue we should be focusing much of our energy, education, law enforcement, etc. to solve.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Since 2015 - Data from Washington post.
Unarmed people shot killed by police
Black = 67
White = 73

Total killed by police
Black - 675
White - 1341

Doesn't really jump out at you until you realize that are about 5x as many white people in the US as there are black people.

Also, I am assuming you are white?
It is hard not to recognize the privilege of being born white in the suburbs. I was a "rambunctious" teen rather than a "thug". I was caught with marijuana when I was 17. They took them and that was it. I ran away from police at parties. I have been pulled over 5 times and received 1 ticket. (4 white cops let me off with nothing) One of the times I was pulled over was for having window tints in Chatham on main street. I kept note of who was pulled over in Chatham on Main street (I lived on main street for two years) from then on and it was pretty much all black people. When I met my wife's cousins husband, a MD state police officer, for the first time he was boasting about pulling people over in his MD town because it was mostly white people and if black people were there, they "were probably up to something". Obviously anecdotal, but I think for most of my life I have taken for granted how easy it is to be white.

There are so many factors that don’t get discussed in those numbers. Are there statistics of drop outs? Are there statistics to show whether or not those people come from homes that consisted of mom and dad in the house? There are plenty of other questions that need to be asked. Dig deep. Don’t just take numbers on the surface.

 

[Pirata]

Since 2015 - Data from Washington post.
Unarmed people shot killed by police
Black = 67
White = 73

Total killed by police
Black - 675
White - 1341

Way misleading.

Spend some time here and come back later: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/home


Example: 2015 data.

Murder Offenders:

4,636 - White
5,620 - Black
283 - Other
4,787 Unknown

Source Table: https://goo.gl/t4vc4F

 

[knowknow456]

In conclusion, it is possible to disagree with

who is protesting
when and where they are protesting
how they are protesting
why they are protesting

 

[Merge]

Way misleading.

The number of unarmed black people is almost the same as the number of unarmed white people.

So it is ok that proportionately more unarmed black people were killed by police than white people because black people commit more violent crime than white people?

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0141854
"There is no relationship between county-level racial bias in police shootings and crime rates (even race-specific crime rates), meaning that the racial bias observed in police shootings in this data set is not explainable as a response to local-level crime rates."

 

[shu09]

Merge, if blacks commit more violent crimes (which is factually true), of course that is going to be reflected in the numbers when you're looking at proportions.

Nobody is saying it is "ok" for unarmed people to be shot by law enforcement. These cases must be looked at on a case-by-case basis. In most of the higher profile cases over the last few years, the officer involved felt threatened and it was justifiable to use force to control an uncooperative suspect.

In the one incident that I know of where they were not (South Carolina), the officer was punished by the criminal justice system. That was a cold blooded murder.

The real reform has to come in the way people react to involvement with law enforcement. Just stop, listen and do what they say. It's not that hard, but apparently some folks just don't get it.