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On the brink of War

In a way I hope Putin is dumb enough to infringe on a NATO country and NATO has to kick his ass which would lead to him being overthrown.Remember when he warned Trump if we attacked Syria WMD labs he would have to shoot down our bombers.Trump told him the day we were attacking and Putn moved all his ships out of the area because he knew we would destroy his forces.He talks tough but is very afraid of US military.
 
Hopefully, this will be over as early as this weekend.

Putin seems to have a clearly defined objective: he is reversing the covert regime change in Kiev from the Orange Revolution (including it’s renewal in 2014), which was intended to pave the way for Ukraine to become part of NATO.

Once the current regime is decisively deposed, Putin is likely to wind things down fairly quickly.

As an aside, some the best quality and most serious American journalism on the background to this crisis has been done by NPR, which looked back at 30 years of history linking Ukraine, Russia and NATO membership:



www.npr.org

Russia's at war with Ukraine. Here's how we got here

Since breaking from the Soviet Union, Ukraine has wavered between the influences of Moscow and the West, surviving scandal and conflict with its democracy intact. Now it faces an existential threat.
www.npr.org www.npr.org
 
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ed odowd said:
Why didn’t Putin invade when Trump was President.Rumor has it that Trump told him he would have to hit Moscow if he did.Putin doubted he would do that but decided to wait till Trump was gone .Story in NY Post today.
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Most likely because he didn’t view Trump as pushing for Ukraine to join NATO.







And, meanwhile, after the 2020 election, what changed?



www.npr.org

GOP Report: Hunter Biden's Ukraine Job 'Problematic,' Effect On Policy 'Unclear'

Senate Republicans released their investigation into former Vice President Joe Biden's son, who was paid by a Ukrainian company as his father handled Ukraine affairs under President Obama.
www.npr.org www.npr.org

 
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Some more thoughtful (rather than emotional) coverage on the Russia-Ukraine crisis from Pat Buchanan’s personal blog, who has been writing on this situation for a long time:

buchanan.org

Did We Provoke Putin’s War in Ukraine?

Whatever we may think of Putin, he is no Stalin. He has not murdered millions or created a gulag archipelago. Nor is he “irrational,” as some pundits rail. He does not want a war with u…
buchanan.org buchanan.org

buchanan.org

Biden Should Declare NATO Membership Closed

A Russian invasion of Ukraine and the war that would inevitably follow would be a disaster for Ukraine and Russia, but also for Europe and the United States. It would ignite a second Cold War, the …
buchanan.org buchanan.org

buchanan.org

NATO — Strategic Asset or Liability?

Understandably, Russian President Vladimir Putin asked himself: To what end, and for what beneficent purpose, was this doubling in size of an alliance that was formed to contain us, and, if necessa…
buchanan.org buchanan.org

buchanan.org

Russia Is Not the Great Rival; China Is

Our great challenge in the 21st century is not Russia. Indeed, in the long term, we want Russia on our side in the long struggle between the U.S. and the West, and Communist China. While all facts …
buchanan.org buchanan.org
 
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Pirata said:
I'll take Trump, Pense, and Pompeo any day over Biden, Harris, and Blinken.
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Interesting that is what you want went Trump fractured the relationship of NATO. Perhaps some credit should be given to Biden with having the European countries and the US having a United front. This is something Trump would never have accomplished.

This unity of NATO is important and u will see increased economic pressure against Russia including kicking Russia out of SWIFT
 
cernjSHU said:
Interesting that is what you want went Trump fractured the relationship of NATO. Perhaps some credit should be given to Biden with having the European countries and the US having a United front. This is something Trump would never have accomplished.

This unity of NATO is important and u will see increased economic pressure against Russia including kicking Russia out of SWIFT
Click to expand...

Why is the unity of NATO important? What year is this? 1985?

That sounds like mindless repetition of a refrain convenient for a generation of bureaucrats and contractors who suddenly lost their raison d’etre on which their careers were built for a half century.

Wasn’t the whole point of NATO to defeat the Soviet Union and prevent World War III?

With the collapse of the Soviet Union (and the conversion of Russia and Eastern Europe into probably the world’s most anti-Communist societies), NATO has morphed into the exact opposite of its original purpose. It’s now precisely a cause of what it sought to prevent: World War III.

Russia expected a hand of friendship after 1990, and instead it was more convenient for an entire generation of tired and inflexible Western bureaucrats to keep the NATO gravy train going by artificially creating animosity for no reason.
 
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cernjSHU said:
Interesting that is what you want went Trump fractured the relationship of NATO. Perhaps some credit should be given to Biden with having the European countries and the US having a United front. This is something Trump would never have accomplished.

This unity of NATO is important and u will see increased economic pressure against Russia including kicking Russia out of SWIFT
Click to expand...
There is no unity of NATO. If there was, the SWIFT sanctions would have already been in place.
 
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I'm thinking our support for Israel should now be over. No more funds or any other support. A bunch of empty suits. Sorry the truth hurts.

 
SHUMA04 said:
Why is the unity of NATO important? What year is this? 1985?

That sounds like mindless repetition of a refrain convenient for a generation of bureaucrats and contractors who suddenly lost their raison d’etre on which their careers were built for a half century.

Wasn’t the whole point of NATO to defeat the Soviet Union and prevent World War III?

With the collapse of the Soviet Union (and the conversion of Russia and Eastern Europe into probably the world’s most anti-Communist societies), NATO has morphed into the exact opposite of its original purpose. It’s now precisely a cause of what it sought to prevent: World War III.

Russia expected a hand of friendship after 1990, and instead it was more convenient for an entire generation of tired and inflexible Western bureaucrats to keep the NATO gravy train going by artificially creating animosity for no reason.
Click to expand...
Has Russia really changed since the fall of the Soviet Union? The answer is no. Besides the Boris Yeltsin years, Russia transformed from one dictatorship to another dictatorship with Putin. Just as aggressive and just a power hungry. Russia has been a threat for many years and yes Mitt R
mOney was correct back in the debate with Obama. Once Putin came into power it was well known that the former KGB agent was anti-west and yearned for a return of the empire of the former Soviet Union. Your discussion of Russia and what it is and of NATO reeks of naïveté. When did Russia become the victim of inflexible western countries? lol this narrative is absolute BS.
 
SPK145 said:
There is no unity of NATO. If there was, the SWIFT sanctions would have already been in place.
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So if the SWIFT sanction happens next week or soon, it does not matter?? Economic sanctions are long term crippling of the economy. Everyday the alliance gets stronger and more resolved to do more against Russia. I believe the SWIFT sanctions will be upcoming shortly.
 
cernjSHU said:
Has Russia really changed since the fall of the Soviet Union? The answer is no. Besides the Boris Yeltsin years, Russia transformed from one dictatorship to another dictatorship with Putin. Just as aggressive and just a power hungry. Russia has been a threat for many years and yes Mitt R
mOney was correct back in the debate with Obama. Once Putin came into power it was well known that the former KGB agent was anti-west and yearned for a return of the empire of the former Soviet Union. Your discussion of Russia and what it is and of NATO reeks of naïveté. When did Russia become the victim of inflexible western countries? lol this narrative is absolute BS.
Click to expand...

What's interesting to me is if Romney won that election, Donald Trump is likely never a major political figure and certainly never president. Maybe Russia doesn't annex Crimea in 2014 and we don't have the problem we're seeing right now. The twists and turns of history are fascinating.
 
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cernjSHU said:
Pretty disappointing stance of Israel. This could only mean one thing and that Israel must be a huge importer of Russian oil.
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Yup, Putin literally has many countries over a barrel.

We could have filled that void if not for poor policies on energy production.
 
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cernjSHU said:
Looks like the agreement has been made already for SWIFT sanctions.
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Need better leadership from all. Only some Russian banks.

finance.yahoo.com

U.S., EU Cut Some Russian Banks From SWIFT, Target Central Bank

(Bloomberg) -- Western nations agreed to unleash new sanctions to further isolate Russia’s economy and financial system after initial penalties failed to persuade President Vladimir Putin to pull out of Ukraine. Most Read from BloombergPutin Ramps Up Ukraine Invasion Pronouncing Peace Talks...
finance.yahoo.com finance.yahoo.com
 
Have to give the Ukrainians a lot of credit for fighting back. Russians are not moving as quickly as they thought they would.
 
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cernjSHU said:
Interesting that is what you want went Trump fractured the relationship of NATO. Perhaps some credit should be given to Biden with having the European countries and the US having a United front. This is something Trump would never have accomplished.
Click to expand...

I think "fractured" is not an accurate word to use. Sure, Trump put strain on it but for the right reasons. NATO was a free ride for many countries and sucking money out of the US.

I do give credit to Biden showing restraint. His united front you speak of has been too slow to react and not gone far enough. It is a weak front.

"They are profound sanctions," Biden said. "Let's have a conversation in another month or so to see if they're working."

Those words are not exactly Churchillian.

You can have your opinion on whether Trump would have ushered a united front or not. Trump accomplished things in the Middle East, North Korea, and China that suggests he would have.

Harris is a complete zero. Total Joke. Not worthy of discussion.

Blinken is an attorney at heart (no wonder you like him, lol). He has foreign policy experience but I'll take Pompeo's background, experience, and demeanor for this situation.
 
SPK145 said:
Seems just the opposite. Finally:

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Germany did this now. Not under Trump. I don’t understand how you find it hard to acknowledge that Biden has done a very good job in galvanizing the NATO countries during this crisis. Romney was on CNN today stating that sanctions would be worthless without the European nations doing it lock step with the US. That also means that things don’t happen as fast as we might want it.

Let’s not forget Trump withheld funding for Ukraine unless they helped with trying to get something on Biden. Yeah. He was great to the Ukrainian people.
 
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cernjSHU said:
Germany did this now. Not under Trump. I don’t understand how you find it hard to acknowledge that Biden has done a very good job in galvanizing the NATO countries during this crisis. Romney was on CNN today stating that sanctions would be worthless without the European nations doing it lock store with the US. That also means that things don’t happen as fast as we might want it.

Let’s not forget Trump withheld funding for Ukraine unless they helped with trying to get something on Biden. Yeah. He was great to the Ukrainian people.
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Yes they did this because of Biden, LOL!!!!! Your TDS is really showing.

Biden also threatened to withhold funds from Ukraine. They annexed Crimea when he was VP. Let's not forget the U.S./Biden in particular meddling in overthrowing Ukraine's democratically elected president in 2013/14. Biden is for democracy, LOL? He is no friend to Ukraine.

Trump supplied arms to Ukraine, Obama/Biden would not.

Trump is/was no savior but this is ridiculous.
 
Russia and China are evil empires.The only way to try to keep them in check is to hurt them economically.This means all out energy production in the US so we can supply more of Europe energy needs.Expand import taxes on China and focus on producing more items like drugs in the US to limit dependence on China.
 
ed odowd said:
Expand import taxes on China and focus on producing more items like drugs in the US to limit dependence on China.
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That sounds all well and good in theory but in practice that's a pretty big tax on Americans.
 
SPK145 said:
Yes they did this because of Biden, LOL!!!!! Your TDS is really showing.

Biden also threatened to withhold funds from Ukraine. They annexed Crimea when he was VP. Let's not forget the U.S./Biden in particular meddling in overthrowing Ukraine's democratically elected president in 2013/14. Biden is for democracy, LOL? He is no friend to Ukraine.

Trump supplied arms to Ukraine, Obama/Biden would not.

Trump is/was no savior but this is ridiculous.
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Maybe and maybe not, but you were trying to justify it because of what Trump did as President. Now that is a ridiculous stance. And that was my point.

your point about withholding funds is a false equivalency and you know it. Trump did it for his own political campaign and Obama/Biden did to get rid of a corrupt Prosecutor In which most of allies wanted out as well.

some people on this board should watch the Romney interview
 
cernjSHU said:
Maybe and maybe not, but you were trying to justify it because of what Trump did as President. Now that is a ridiculous stance. And that was my point.
Click to expand...

Please its plainly clear why they all of a sudden will spend 2% of their GDP on their military.
cernjSHU said:
your point about withholding funds is a false equivalency and you know it. Trump did it for his own political campaign and Obama/Biden did to get rid of a corrupt Prosecutor In which most of allies wanted out as well.
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What business is it of ours to determine that for another sovereign country?
 
SPK145 said:
Please its plainly clear why they all of a sudden will spend 2% of their GDP on their military.

What business is it of ours to determine that for another sovereign country?
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I disagree that it’s clear.

2) if we are giving money to that country, it is our business.
 
SPK145 said:
Really? So money means we rule others? That's just one reason why we should not be giving ANY foreign aid to anyone.
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No not that we rule others but economic pressure is a valid course of conduct when there was a world wide view to oresssure the removal of a corrupt prosecutor. That’s not ruling Another country.

with regard to foreign aid, That’s just a very short sighted view. Foreign aid is an important tool of American Diplomacy and important for geopolitical and military reasons as well. not giving foreign aid is a good way to turn many countries against us and into the arms of our enemies and competitors.

the US spends around $35 to $40 billion a year on foreign aid. That is a very small percentage of our budget.
 
$40 Billion is about 4% of the non-military discretionary budget. That is not trivial.
 
Pirata said:
$40 Billion is about 4% of the non-military discretionary budget. That is not trivial.
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put in another way around 1% of the overall budget. That is very small and this is important to American interests around the world.
 
SPK145 said:
Please its plainly clear why they all of a sudden will spend 2% of their GDP on their military.
Click to expand...

Not really all of a sudden. They have been planning to get here since 2014 when all NATO members pledged to get to 2% by 2024. Recent Russian aggression pushed them to get there early.
 
cernjSHU said:
Maybe and maybe not, but you were trying to justify it because of what Trump did as President. Now that is a ridiculous stance. And that was my point.

your point about withholding funds is a false equivalency and you know it. Trump did it for his own political campaign and Obama/Biden did to get rid of a corrupt Prosecutor In which most of allies wanted out as well.

some people on this board should watch the Romney interview
View embedded media
Click to expand...
False equivalency = I don’t like your position so I’ll use a glossy phrase
Can’t make this stuff up
 
Merge said:
Not really all of a sudden. They have been planning to get here since 2014 when all NATO members pledged to get to 2% by 2024. Recent Russian aggression pushed them to get there early.
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Right, they didn't move the needle at all until Trump shamed them into it.

data.worldbank.org

World Bank Open Data

Free and open access to global development data
data.worldbank.org data.worldbank.org
 
SPK145 said:
Right, they didn't move the needle at all until Trump shamed them into it.

data.worldbank.org

World Bank Open Data

Free and open access to global development data
data.worldbank.org data.worldbank.org
Click to expand...

Sure, but at the same time, If you agree to do something in 10 years that is essentially signing a piece of paper to increase a budget, I'd think most people would wait till the end of that term.

I don't really have a strong opinion here. Trump wasn't wrong in pushing them. We shouldn't be the worlds police. Maybe they would never have met the 2% at all without Trump shaming them, or maybe they still don't hit 2% if Russia doesn't invade Ukraine. At least they are going to hit the target they agreed to meet years ago.
 
Trump was right in shaming them as the US continued to spend all the money, provide security and make a huge part of the investments while Germany and Italy and other countries wanted to be part of NATO but didn't want to do their fair share. And I am not a Trump fan - hoping what Bill Barr said gets through a few thick Republicans heads.

Merkel is out and that is a good thing and the Euros are now seriously concerned about their security and energy sources. About time! This event could actually unite NATO which would be a good thing in the long-term for the world. Let's see what happens. I hope we wise up and get energy independent and less dependent on China as well. How many times do these things have to happen for us to learn our lessons? But its usually about the Benjamins.
 
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