Giant fans......

[shuvrp]

https://nypost.com/2018/10/21/sam-d...mpaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=NYPSportsTwitter

Obviously week to week this early in a career you can't Monday Morning QB...but I still think, as I have said before, Darnold turns the ball over WAY too much. He is obviously not the first rookie to ever do so and many others have gone on to great careers. Just saying, I'm not sure you can anoint Darnold as a franchise QB just yet...can you?

I have no clue, but aside from the bluster of the NYG saying they believed in Eli and thought they could "win now" with Barkley...maybe they also just didn't like any of the top QBs? Again, I have no idea, just keeping the conversation going.

100% agree with you. Not ready to anoint Darnold in holy oils just yet.

My point that I failed to elaborate on is that even if there is a 50/50 chance Darnold is a top-10 franchise QB ( I think it's higher than that, but what do I know) - I'd rather have that lottery ticket than a hall of fame caliber RB. I think the difference between a replacement level RB and an elite RB in 2018 is meaningless when you compare it to not having a young QB you can build a team around.

Additionally, Saquan is already getting paid a lot and he's going to get paid more down the line if he stays healthy. As a GM, I don't want big money allocated to the RB position in a salary cap league.

 

[dcPirate]

100% agree with you. Not ready to anoint Darnold in holy oils just yet.

My point that I failed to elaborate on is that even if there is a 50/50 chance Darnold is a top-10 franchise QB ( I think it's higher than that, but what do I know) - I'd rather have that lottery ticket than a hall of fame caliber RB. I think the difference between a replacement level RB and an elite RB in 2018 is meaningless when you compare it to not having a young QB you can build a team around.

Additionally, Saquan is already getting paid a lot and he's going to get paid more down the line if he stays healthy. As a GM, I don't want big money allocated to the RB position in a salary cap league.

Good point(s).

As a NYG fan it's all a mess right now anyway...which is brutal. Watching Saquon play is really one of the only reasons to tune into a NYG game right now imo... If Darnold was playing behind this OL he might be heading down David Carr's path with all the times he got sacked his first couple years.

Barkley-Darnold will be talked about for a long time in NY one way or another...

 

[shuvrp]

Good point(s).

As a NYG fan it's all a mess right now anyway...which is brutal. Watching Saquon play is really one of the only reasons to tune into a NYG game right now imo... If Darnold was playing behind this OL he might be heading down David Carr's path with all the times he got sacked his first couple years.

Barkley-Darnold will be talked about for a long time in NY one way or another...

I can see it working out for both teams. Saquan is what Reggie Bush was supposed to be and with more power. He's amazing. We shall see.

 

[dcPirate]

It sounds legit but who knows. His younger brother will be a freshman tight end there next year and he’s a local kid. We’ll see if being the number one overall pick supersedes all that. It would for me.

Sam Darnold once talked seriously about coming back for his Senior year too. Herbert's brother coming in might change the dynamic and make the decision harder, but I guess we'll see.

 

[hallgrad80]

Huge risk for Herbert to come back as the potential for an injury always exists and could cost him tons of money and seeing him drop as to where he’s picked in the first round.

 

[flconticello]

Last QB we drafted from Duke was very similar to Jones. No thanks.

Watched some of Herbert's game last night & came away unimpressed.

Agreed I'll pass
Not nearly as mobile as Herbert. Also on "highlights" he consistently underthrew receives on the long ball. Didn't see one ball that "wow'd" me. These are highlights and are supposed to show you at your best.

 

[SnakeTom]

I can understand that, but his WRs dropped a ton of passes.

And two of the interceptions were on deflected passes. (one of which went right thru the receivers hands and bounced off his shoulder pad)

TK

 

[hallgrad80]

And two of the interceptions were on deflected passes. (one of which went right thru the receivers hands and bounced off his shoulder pad)

TK

I always thought it was unfair when a QB puts the ball in a receiver’s hand and it bounces off the receiver into a defender ‘s hand and the QB is charged with an interception. I would like to see that type of interception not charged to the QB but listed as a “ team interception “ against the offensive team.

 

[TomD82]

Back up the truck and tear this team down. This moving players around on the OL does not work and spending 16 million a year for a LT that is nowhere near worth anything close to that does not work. I don' t care if they don't draft a QB for a couple of years just build a legit OL.

Do what the Rams did. Do what Dallas has done. Do what New Orleans has done. Please this entire organization is delusional. Do what the Raiders are doing I can't watch any longer.

This game and team is putrid.

 

[hallgrad80]

Back up the truck and tear this team down. This moving players around on the OL does not work and spending 16 million a year for a LT that is nowhere near worth anything close to that does not work. I don' t care if they don't draft a QB for a couple of years just build a legit OL.

Do what the Rams did. Do what Dallas has done. Do what New Orleans has done. Please this entire organization is delusional. Do what the Raiders are doing I can't watch any longer.

This game and team is putrid.

If Mara and Tisch finally accept that this team is in need of a total tear down and rebuild then start that process by trading assets like OBJ and others and start adding draft picks and creating more cap,space the way the Raiders are doing.

 

[TomD82]

Shurmur out-coached and terrible clock management. Eli to blame too. Guess since he never did a QB sneak under Coughlin he forgot how long it takes off the clock.

Just a putrid team as I said. Eli should be dealt for whatever pick they can get now and should move down in the draft for more picks after that. They are going to take a QB while 3rd and a 4th round picks in prior drafts wind up wasted on QBs that never play a down.

 

[its haLL baLL]

Odell Beckham's mouth and Eli Manning's decline get blame, but John Mara is architect of this Giants mess

 

[sportsfantatic44]

I can’t watch Eli play anymore. It’s time to move on. No reason to play a 38 year old QB when the season is over in October again. No one wants to hear ’he gives us the best chance to win’ nonsense anymore either. Please.

 

[hallgrad80]

Giants really can’t afford to miss on any of their free agent signings or with their value picks in the next couple of drafts. The biggest hurdle the Giants face is that quality O-Lineman are such a high priority for teams only a limited number come into the free agent market, competition for them is fierce and you have to pay up for them. The same is true in the draft although this coming draft is supposed to be deep for o- linemen.

 

[its haLL baLL]

If they were smart they'd pull a page out of the Raiders playbook and tear this entire thing down. Eli is my favorite Giant of all-time, but there's no reason for him to play after the bye. At this point, winning games should be the last priority. They need to evaluate the entire roster and decide who is going to be here moving forward and who isn't.

I don't think Mara has it in him though. He's gonna try and salvage this season and prove that his evaluation going into the season wasn't that far off. I'm fully expecting them to win some meaningless games down the stretch and take themselves out of contention for the top pick.

 

[sportsfantatic44]

If they were smart they'd pull a page out of the Raiders playbook and tear this entire thing down. Eli is my favorite Giant of all-time, but there's no reason for him to play after the bye. At this point, winning games should be the last priority. They need to evaluate the entire roster and decide who is going to be here moving forward and who isn't.

I don't think Mara has it in him though. He's gonna try and salvage this season and prove that his evaluation going into the season wasn't that far off. I'm fully expecting them to win some meaningless games down the stretch and take themselves out of contention for the top pick.

Couldn’t have said it any better. 100% spot on.

 

[Piratz]

Eli is the next up to get the fury of frustration, following Coughlin, Reese, McAdoo before him. I hope Eli does get traded and makes a run with a team better suited for him. Watching him try to play around this mess isn’t worth it.

Then when he’s gone, someone else will be on the griddle until the winning begins. Everyone will get their pound of flesh. Their issues run deeper than QB. You cannot play offense with a line like that. It’s been going on for years. Until that changes it doesn’t matter who is playing QB. A young kid is going to get killed taking that abuse without learning how to take an NFL hit, and their confidence destroyed.

 

[dcPirate]

If Mara and Tisch finally accept that this team is in need of a total tear down and rebuild then start that process by trading assets like OBJ and others and start adding draft picks and creating more cap,space the way the Raiders are doing.

The NYG can't trade OBJ now for probably 2 years. Due to his massive deal, they would have HUGE dead cap space the next 2 seasons if they traded him ($20mm+ next year alone). So they can blow the rest of it up...but outside of Barkley what else is there of huge value to other teams? Engram/Shepard is about it...

 

[hallgrad80]

The NYG can't trade OBJ now for probably 2 years. Due to his massive deal, they would have HUGE dead cap space the next 2 seasons if they traded him ($20mm+ next year alone). So they can blow the rest of it up...but outside of Barkley what else is there of huge value to other teams? Engram/Shepard is about it...

Did you know that the Giants are taking a $15 million dead cap hit for JPP , another mistake when they resigned him. As to taking a huge dead cap hit If they trade OBJ , does it really matter if the hit is dead cap space or a hit because he’s on the roster. The Giants have so many needs that they need extra picks in the draft and why I would still pursue trades .

 

[Burnsly]

You'd never know that Eli threw for 399 yards last night.

 

[hallgrad80]

Eli is the next up to get the fury of frustration, following Coughlin, Reese, McAdoo before him. I hope Eli does get traded and makes a run with a team better suited for him. Watching him try to play around this mess isn’t worth it.

Then when he’s gone, someone else will be on the griddle until the winning begins. Everyone will get their pound of flesh. Their issues run deeper than QB. You cannot play offense with a line like that. It’s been going on for years. Until that changes it doesn’t matter who is playing QB. A young kid is going to get killed taking that abuse without learning how to take an NFL hit, and their confidence destroyed.

The o-l play for the Falcons was not great either and there are not a lot of teams you can point to that have really good O-Lines . Part of the problem as I see it is that there has been what seems to be an unusual low number of quality lineman in the last couple of drafts but this coming draft is reportedly deep in quality lineman. In fact one of the recent mock drafts for next year has seven O-Linemen going in the first round.

 

[SHUHitman]

Giants fan here and my answer is no absolutely not. Barkley is a once in a generation talent. He reminds me of my all time favorite running back Barry Sanders. If the Giants have another crap season and end up drafting Tua from Alabama; I'll be fine.

I disagree on that. Every 3 years we see a running back doing the things that Barkley is doing. While a tremendous talent, once in a generation is far-fetched, particularly at his position. Barry Sanders was a legend and how many Super Bowls did the Lions win? How many playoff appearances did he carry them to? You don't win in this league without a QB because you can't have a "QB by committee" approach the same way you can get by with a "RB by committee approach".

A very good QB is just plain worth more than a great RB.

 

[Piratz]

Years of neglect. You can trace it quite linearly to 2013. The OL carousel began that season. And Jerry Reese was so oblivious that his line was aging he put up a SB calendar in the locker room that summer. Must’ve driven Coughlin nuts. Then they scapegoated Gilbride and in came McAdoo. The Reese power move was underway.

They’ve been chasing ever since, whiffing with 3 premium draft picks even. Look at this season: 5 new OL starters and now 3 different line configurations in 7 games all tied into a new offense.

There’s a perception out there that QB’s should be able to play and rise above bad line play. As if they are video games. Some can do that, maybe, but even if they can they’re at risk of long term injury (Rodgers). It doesn’t happen. When QB’s are exposed to beatings for multiple seasons at a time, this is what it looks like; they stop playing above the chaos. It affects them. They lose timing, sightlines. Eli has taken a beating. He’s not rising above and making big plays anymore because of it. And with the issues this team has he needs to nail every big throw. He’s not. Plus Eli isn’t mobile and has always been at his best with a balanced offensive attack.

I believe Eli has one of the quickest releases statistically, yet also one of the highest sack rates. That combination is mind boggling. It’s like a bad relationship now, lol.

 

[shuvrp]

Look at the last 4 super bowl champions and the quality of RBs they have:

Patriots - Blount, Vereen
Broncos - CJ Anderson
Patriots - Blount, Dion Lewis, James White
Eagles - Ayaji, Blount, Smallwood

These are solid NFL running backs but I doubt any of these guys were top 30 in RB salary at the time of their Super Bowl win.

You can win without elite running backs and more importantly it seems that if you save money on NOT spending on elite running backs and allocate that money elsewhere you have a better chance to win.

The Giants are like the guy who buys the Ferrari with all of his money and is forced to buy cheap tires, low octane fuel and never changes the oil and then wonders why it breaks down.

 

[hallgrad80]

The Giants owners and GM made a fateful decision that Eli was still a qb who could take them to the playoffs. They spent much of their limited cap space on two free agent offensive linemen , drafted one in the second round and thought that drafting Barkley would be the key to getting back to the playoffs behind an improved o-line that would give Eli better protection and the return of a healthy OBJ . Mara , Tisch and Gettlemen were just plain wrong and it has set the Giants back even further as a team still with a porous O-Line, no replacement in place for Eli and a dim future .

 

[its haLL baLL]

And it begins.

 

[TomD82]

Confirmed on WFAN Eli has been traded. Apple that is. No consideration reported yet. Saints traded a 3 for Bridgewater so the giants got better than that?

 

[TomD82]

Nope. Reported a 4th round pick next year and a 7th in 2020. Not much for a high Reese pick.

 

[Burnsly]

Could Evan Engram be next? Reese/Ross was a total disaster.

 

[Burnsly]

The o-l play for the Falcons was not great either and there are not a lot of teams you can point to that have really good O-Lines .

The reason for this was due to the Giants blitzing 7 guys. It stopped once the Falcons adjusted. The Giants O-Line got beat without the Falcons blitzing.

 

[its haLL baLL]

Nope. Reported a 4th round pick next year and a 7th in 2020. Not much for a high Reese pick.

We got nothing for the 9th pick in Flowers and a 4th and 7th for the 10th pick in Apple. Imagine if Reese didn't take Beckham? He may have the worst draft record of all-time without him.

 

[Halldan1]

Giants trade Eli Apple to Saints as shake-up begins

By Post Sports Desk

Eli Apple
Anthony J Causi

Not that Eli.

Eli Apple’s turbulent Giants career is over after the Giants traded the cornerback to the Saints on Tuesday in return for a 2019 fourth-round pick and 2020 seventh-rounder, ESPN.com reported. The move came a day after the team fell to 1-6 in a disastrous first season for coach Pat Shurmur and GM Dave Gettleman.

The Giants selected Apple with the 10th pick of the 2016 draft, and he was a steady secondary presence for a playoff team that season. But he became the face of the Giants’ crash last season, amid differences with Ben McAdoo’s coaching staff and teammates.

Apple was suspended for the final game of the season and was publicly criticized by safety Landon Collins.

 

[hallgrad80]

Here are Reese’s first round picks beginning with his first draft in 2007
2007 - Aaron Ross DB ( 20th)
2008 - Kenny Phillips DB ( 31st)
2009 - Hakeem Hicks WR ( 29nth)
2010 - JPP DE (15th)
2011 - Amukamara DB (19th)
2012 - Wilson RB (32nd)
2013 - Pugh OL (19th)
2014 - OBJ WR ( 12th)
2015 - Flowers OL ( 9nth)
2016 - Apple DB (10th)
2017 - Engram TE ( 23rd)

 

[Section112]

Wow I thought Apple was playing well so far this year and comes at a reasonable price for the Giants.

I watched the game last night. One one series in the red zone Eli missed two wide open receivers in the end zone and threw short passes. I know he is getting hit a lot but the o-line is slightly better this year than last (not saying much). But an experienced QB can't miss two open receivers in the end zone on two critical plays in a row. On 3rd he got sacked. Shurmur was dying on the sideline because he saw it. Sad to see Eli go out like this really but its time. He left points on the board last night. And why did he waste so much clock at the end? Again not a veteran thing to do.

 

[Halldan1]

Eli Apple should be just the start of torching these Giants

By Steve Serby

Eli AppleAP


As the Giants burn, let the fire sale begin.

Tuesday’s trade of Eli Apple to the Saints for a 2019 fourth-round pick and a 2020 seventh-rounder signals that the Dave Gettleman Giants are in the midst of a massive rebuild.

That’s what happens when your Win Now dreams become a Lose Now nightmare.

Apple, the underachieving 10th pick of the 2016 draft, best known for volunteering “I have to take a s–t” during a turmoil-plagued sophomore season, joins tackle Ereck Flowers, the ninth pick of the 2015 NFL draft, as colossal busts, now gone.

Gettleman gave Apple a clean slate … until Tuesday.

“You don’t give up on talent,” the new GM likes to say.

But you do give up on underperforming talent.

Apple was the player former GM Jerry Reese settled for after the Titans leapfrogged him for tackle Jack Conklin, and the Bears traded in front of him for outside linebacker Leonard Floyd. Apple showed promise as a rookie and then deteriorated last season in the midst of a troubled family situation and an obvious lack of maturity and mental toughness that saw him rail against cornerbacks coach Tim Walton at practice when he refused to take scout-team reps.

Landon Collins went as far as calling Apple “a cancer” during a radio interview, for which Collins apologized.

The Giants suspended him for Week 17 for “a pattern of behavior that is conduct detrimental to the team,” after then-coach Ben McAdoo kept him inactive from Nov. 19 through Dec. 10.

On the night Apple was drafted, his mother told The Post he was “The Black Eli Manning.” That leaves the Giants with one Eli. And the one Eli is a 37-year-old quarterback in decline who deserves a better ending, but whose end is near.

 

[dcPirate]

Here are Reese’s first round picks beginning with his first draft in 2007
2007 - Aaron Ross DB ( 20th)
2008 - Kenny Phillips DB ( 31st)
2009 - Hakeem Hicks WR ( 29nth)
2010 - JPP DE (15th)
2011 - Amukamara DB (19th)
2012 - Wilson RB (32nd)
2013 - Pugh OL (19th)
2014 - OBJ WR ( 12th)
2015 - Flowers OL ( 9nth)
2016 - Apple DB (10th)
2017 - Engram TE ( 23rd)

Ross - was ok for a few years but a miss
Phillips was a good player but again only for 3-4 years
Nicks - solid player for 5 years until injuries got him - ok pick
JPP - solid pick until his fireworks incident
Amukamara - eh
Wilson - just bad luck as that kid seemed like the real deal
OBJ - great pick
Pugh - ok pick but if was a great pick he'd still be with the NYG
Flowers - well...
Apple - jury still out as he's young but seems like a miss that high
Engram - jury still out

Problem for Reese is it wasn't just the 1st rounders he fairly consistently missed on... I think he got a 1 year pass when he threw all that $ at Vernon, Snacks and Jack Rabbit which paid off big time in year 1. After that not so much. Jack Rabbit is stealing $ at this point. Snacks has been consistently and Vernon has played well when he's not hurt - which isn't very often lately.

What a mess. The fact only OBJ and Engram are still on the team speaks volumes. Also can't forget that Reese would have been better off paying Linval Joseph and not letting him leave.

 

[its haLL baLL]

https://projects.newsday.com/databases/long-island/new-york-giants-nfl-draft-history/

Some real head scratchers in there.

 

[hallgrad80]

https://projects.newsday.com/databases/long-island/new-york-giants-nfl-draft-history/

Some real head scratchers in there.

Every GM has head scratchers but Reese seemed to have more then his share.

 

[Burnsly]

÷Wow I thought Apple was playing well so far this year and comes at a reasonable price for the Giants.

He didn't play in the only game they've won. Terrible man to man defender.

 

[NYC Pirate]

JPP and Nicks were vital to the Giants winning at least one Super Bowl. Ross also was solid. Philips would have been a terrific player if he didn’t get injured. That group of picks were strong and a good job by the GM.

The rest of his picks except for OBJ have stunk. I think OBJ’s early success have turned him into a looney on field player.

Flowers, Apple and The Prince are just brutal picks.

Not sure about Engram yet.