Carino on the Hall
- Thread starter Halldan1
- Start date
No worries my man. We are all Seton Hall fanatics on this board and I expect all different levels of anger/disappointment/defensiveness when it comes to SHU. It's a program that gives me constant heart palpitations but I'm screaming my head off when we win.
I'm actually trying to tone down my own rhetoric after the last loss since I realize it doesn't help the team.
Honestly if they get to 9-9 it means they did enough. That's not even "bad". That's good. We did our work OOC, and we did enough with 9-9 to earn a bid in my opinion. I think that unfortunately the track record suggests we aren't consistent enough to win the next three. We haven't won three in a row all conference season.
Hey Dan,
I understand the Willard situation but to totally dismiss any options ( not your choice ) in terms of employment is as silly as saying he sucks and we need a new coach tomorrow.
Again, I know it's not your choice and YOU are not saying that but that just doesn't make any sense.
Deal Lord I am going back and forth, love the Board.
Go Pirates
I understand the Willard situation but to totally dismiss any options ( not your choice ) in terms of employment is as silly as saying he sucks and we need a new coach tomorrow.
Again, I know it's not your choice and YOU are not saying that but that just doesn't make any sense.
Deal Lord I am going back and forth, love the Board.
Go Pirates
2009,
Thanks for the kinds words, appreciate that, we are in in the same boat, just trying to find a way to get SHU to prominence.
Have to go 3-1, if people are sceptical they should be, but if we get there credit should be served, can happen.
Go Pirates.
Thanks for the kinds words, appreciate that, we are in in the same boat, just trying to find a way to get SHU to prominence.
Have to go 3-1, if people are sceptical they should be, but if we get there credit should be served, can happen.
Go Pirates.
There's just no way Willard will be or should be fired after this season, that's just crazy for anyone to even think that.
Still a pretty good chance to make the NCAA's this season (what it's really all about) even if it is a disappointing season.
No NCAA's this seaosn and he should be on the hot seat next year.
Still a pretty good chance to make the NCAA's this season (what it's really all about) even if it is a disappointing season.
No NCAA's this seaosn and he should be on the hot seat next year.
Dan, I'm sure you're right and I doubt any poster on this Board , even Kevin's most vocal critics , expected him to not be here next season . What I do sense as I read the numerous posts discussing Kevin and his performance to date as our head coach is that his on court record isn't the benchmark used by those who will decide his fate. If that is true and future results show us regressing rather then progressing within the Conference you will see support for the program decline in terms of both financial support and fan attendance.
Thousand percent agree with you on that. Which is what I said I heard rumblings of in recent days. And as I said if I'm hearing it I know that others are.
Next year is an absolute must do something in the tourney year. No more excuses. If it doesn't happen next year why does anybody possibly think it's going to happen w/Willard after 8 years? 8 years is more than enough time to win a game in the NCAA tourney now. The question is does the administration feel the same way. I have my doubts.
Making the NCAA's is the bright line for me. Sure a win or two or more would be nice but it's all about making the NCAA's.
Unless there's another Jay Wright out there, no Steve Lappas stuff.
Unless there's another Jay Wright out there, no Steve Lappas stuff.
And on another note, why would Willard leave Seton Hall after the season to go to South Florida? That is a god awful job with just about nobody interested in that program. I don't buy it.
Have you been to Tampa - St. Pete?
Compare that area to Newark...in February.
I rest my case.
I hope Willard jumps ship for the beaches, sun, beach buns, and Florida lifestyle. I think that SHU can now attract a good coach who understands structured offense. The association with the new BE and Fox makes SHU look much better than in 2010.
Sounds like what they said about us when we fired Orr.
It's disappointing to be 6-8. We have underachieved. We've played messy all year, we're not prepared in the backcourt, and it's nearly cost us our season.
But it's not over yet. The goal is still out there to be attained, so let's try to be patient until all results are in.
The objective is to make the NCAA Tournament again. So why are we freaking out when that can still happen? Let's see if he can rally them and get in. If he does that for the second year in a row are we still going to bitch? I'm not.
It's only been 23 years since we made it consecutively, lol.
But it's not over yet. The goal is still out there to be attained, so let's try to be patient until all results are in.
The objective is to make the NCAA Tournament again. So why are we freaking out when that can still happen? Let's see if he can rally them and get in. If he does that for the second year in a row are we still going to bitch? I'm not.
It's only been 23 years since we made it consecutively, lol.
Of course he does. You don't fire a coach one year after winning the BIG EAST COY award.
That plus we are involved with a ton of big time recruits and you don't want to do anything to lose that momentum right now.
Despite that Willard has not done a very good job with this team and he deserves criticism although at times it's over the top here.
If we waste next season by not bringing in at least 1 high quality PG and don't take advantage of the core four seniors then he deserves to be on a very hot seat after next season.
He would deserve to be fired after next season if that were to happen.
It's not professional sports. If he's got a monster 2018 class lined up he could go 15-16 and be back the following year.
I understand, but if he has another disappointing season next year and fails to make the NCAAs this year, that would be 8 years here with 1 NCAA appearance. That, plus failing to capitalize on the 2014 class and not having much coming in on recruiting trail should be enough to move on from him, IMO.
What Dan had referenced would be an absolute worst case scenario and I don't see either happening. But if they did, I can't see how the administration could justify Willard returning for what would be a 9th season.
I'm not saying whether I agree or disagree as I would have to see the actual scenario play out, I'm just saying there's more that will go into the decision than W's and L's.
At the same time, while nobody would have signed up for this situation, we have 4 games left. 2 winnable home games, an extremely winnable road game at DePaul, and a revenge game at Butler. Let's freaking take care of business and it will be back to back tournament appearances. This board has to stop being negative every minute of the day. It's as if many are rooting for this team to fail to say see Willard made it once in seven year or eight years.
If he doesn't and we do not have someone to fill the void that's on our head coach who has not followed up recruiting Delgado three years ago with anything close to resembling a quality D1 backup.
If Delgado does leave for a Spanish league or something similar then our staff better bring in a high quality big THIS season. We are involved with a few.
I'd be with haLL baLL, if he went this year and next without making the NCAA's he would have proven that he can't coach even with a good recruiting class, what would make anyone believe it would be any better with a good 2018 class?
These are just huge hypotheticals though, let it all play out bit by bit.
We are getting way ahead of ourselves, but if the worst case scenario comes to play, this would be the most damning to me.
The idea that someone is rooting for Willard to fail is flawed - (1) not one person wants failure for the program (2) pointed criticism about the coach is an expression of the overwhelming disappointment - decades and decades long - and the reason the criticisms appear so easily is that the there appear to be only desperate hopes for improvement in this long unhappy road.
Waiting for "the right time" is bosh. There is no right time. For all our flaws, we are not fools when it comes to what appears on the floor, game in and game out. Why should I sit on my hands and pretend like I cannot see the wrong trends in terms of coaching the players and the results?
If we were awash in even a modest damned uptick of success, there would be criticisms, because there always will be, but they would be tactical criticisms, not strategic criticisms. As we come to the close on year 7 (and add 3 more for Gonzo, just because that's the fact), the programmatic successes gained by Lyons and Willard should safely now be declared as GAINED and in the drinking water. What I mean is, if the GPA is high and the program is functioning to an effective degree, there's a point at which you say "that part is complete, stop touting this as a principle accomplishment for the year".
We're grateful for these programmatic accomplishments.
Now where's the damned beef?
Waiting for "the right time" is bosh. There is no right time. For all our flaws, we are not fools when it comes to what appears on the floor, game in and game out. Why should I sit on my hands and pretend like I cannot see the wrong trends in terms of coaching the players and the results?
If we were awash in even a modest damned uptick of success, there would be criticisms, because there always will be, but they would be tactical criticisms, not strategic criticisms. As we come to the close on year 7 (and add 3 more for Gonzo, just because that's the fact), the programmatic successes gained by Lyons and Willard should safely now be declared as GAINED and in the drinking water. What I mean is, if the GPA is high and the program is functioning to an effective degree, there's a point at which you say "that part is complete, stop touting this as a principle accomplishment for the year".
We're grateful for these programmatic accomplishments.
Now where's the damned beef?
Exactly. They're all worst case scenarios.
Worst case for this year - Miss the NCAAs
Worst case for next year - Miss the NCAAs
Worst case for the future - Miss out on our 2017 and 2018 PG targets
I'm not expecting all of this to happen, but if it did I think you'd have to move on.
To SHUHoopsFan post, I'm with you. Too many people almost rooting for Willard to fail when we still have a chance this year to make the tournament. If we get to 9-9 or run the table and get to 10-8 these Willard conversations are pointless.
The PG situation has not worked out this year and it's causing huge problems on both sides of the floor. We hoped Khadeen could step in and run the team and hoped Jones could be better than he was. Both kids are giving their all but you cannot play well if the guy holding the ball for the majority of the time or guarding the other team's PG (who has the ball a lot too) is struggling. It just doesn't work and a lot of what we are seeing is a result of this major issue on our team. Comes back to recruiting. Let's hope we get some major recruiting wins this year and don't look back.
I think Jones has been better than what could've been expected. He was our 3rd option and an extremely late emergency signee. When did we sign him? Freaking June?
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/61161/madison-jones
The problem was Thomas. He was problematic from the start given his behavior history, we took the risk, his skills as a PG were pumped up all offseason, and we got burned on both accounts. Again.
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/61161/madison-jones
The problem was Thomas. He was problematic from the start given his behavior history, we took the risk, his skills as a PG were pumped up all offseason, and we got burned on both accounts. Again.
Exactly they are hypotheticals, but if he won with IW, no reason to think he can't do it again with a team loaded with 4 and 5 stars everywhere. However I still he can get it done this year. 3 very winnable games left. 1 tough one at at Butler, but that game is also winnable.
Literally we have 4 games left and are in the hunt for back to back NCAA tournament appearances for the first time since 1994. Go read the number of complaints about the coach and go read the amount of excitement regarding something we haven't accomplished since 1994. It's plain and simple. When is the last time we played meaningful basketball as late as February 22nd in consecutive years. Sadly this is a step in the right direction, but it is a step in the right direction. Even when we do something in a positive direction people find the negatives because we aren't a 5 seed or a 7 seed.
A
anon_4htvdezyfe7k9
Guest
I respectfully disagree here. I know the extension we gave him makes this a non-issue, but ignoring obvious recruiting and coaching issues just because of one good season is a mistake. It's the same rationale that I believe most here had when we knew moving on from Orr was the right move despite a couple NCAA appearances. You could just tell he wasn't going to have sustained success and that was proven out after he left. If Holloway leaves for a HC job the issue is just further compounded. Again, moot point given his reported contract situation, not to mention whatever factor his relationship with Lyons plays, but it's been more than long enough of a track record IMO.
I'm posting this with the assumption we miss the Dance this year, because that's what I'm assuming based on what I've witnessed. Obviously if he manages to harness the talent he has down the stretch and make it, that's a different story.
This is also the rationale for those who would like Willard gone. Many say it's crazy because of last season (which, though by far his most successful, still ended in a game one blowout tournament loss), but others think you have to look bigger picture. Without selling two assistant coaching spots, I think last year looks like every other year, including this one thus far, which like it or not carries the common hallmarks of collapse after promising starts. I don't have confidence in his ability to secure elite talent without the hiring quid pro quo, nor to win without elite talent given his lack of an effective offensive system. He is a perpetual excuse-maker, which is why I think we see the same problems recur season after season instead of being addressed by taking responsibility and making real changes.
It is both about wins and losses and more than wins and losses. Unfortunately, I do not think he has succeeded in either category.
One game at a time guys, that's all. Take it slow and try not to get ahead of yourselves. You can do it. Best of Luck !!
Again I agree the entire situation needs to be looked at but can we wait until March 2018. We're in a position where we can get back to the NCAA tournament in consecutive years for the first time in 23 years. Unfortunately I'm not sure if the majority of our fan base knows that. The team could use our support these final 4 games.
Sometimes a COY Award is really an 'Exceeded Expectations Based on Consistenly Poor Results' Award. KW won that award. I would not use this as a supportive argument in this case.
Fully agree. Any talk of firing now is silly, despite the frustrations and disappointments of the season to date.
If next season is wasted in ANY way and he doesn't have a great recruiting class locked, he needs to go. If he was given a longterm guarantee that prevents SHU from moving on (in this hypothetical), the people responsible for said guarantee need to go too.
I'm totally supportive of the team and hope we do make it back to the tournament this year. I was just explaining the why to those bewildered by how anyone could still want to move on from Willard despite the tournament appearance last year and chance of making it back this season.
Might not agree because he did more than just co-earn the award with Wright based on past poor results..
He did so in grand faction with a fabulous year winning the Big East Tournament and beating 3 top 5 teams down the stretch with a sophomore dominated team.
And the Nova victory was not a fluke either as they beat us at home a few weeks prior by a point.
I agree and FWIW I don't think it would necessarily be a foreign league. I look at the second round of most current mock drafts and there are bigs on that list that I'd take Angel over in a heart beat. I think he can be an asset in the league right now as a big who comes off the bench and does work on the glass.
Ironically, I think alot of people would say that about Seton Hall if they fired Willard. When was the last time Seton Hall went to 2 consecutive NCAA tournaments? Willard has a realistic chance of doing that with nearly a full roster returning next season. I just don't think this program is at the point where they can lose their best player, and nearly conference player of the year, after his sophomore season and expect to match previous results. Seton Hall, while firmly on the bubble and coming off a conference championship, barely had 4,000 fans show up for a home game against a top 20 team. There's not going to be an Archie Miller knocking on the door if Willard is tossed.
Agree and that's why Willard is not getting fired this season if we don't make the dance, nor should he.
What Gottfried did though doesn't compare to what Willard did thus far.
What Gottfried did though doesn't compare to what Willard did thus far.
