Notice the worst the Giants do in a season the better Reese's drafts look. There is a cause effect to that because the Giants draft earlier. Reese's self fulfilling prophecy will be drafting earlier and having a lot of cap space.
OT: Tom Coughlin
- Thread starter Piratz
- Start date
Watching clips of the press conference today and watching and listening to the discussions in the sports media there are several things that had to catch everyone's attention .
First the tremendous respect and genuine affection that the players and former players have for Tom.
Jerry's reputation took a big hit today, in my opinion , not because of the issues surrounding the state of the Giant's roster but his trying to shift the blame . Instead of being a man and just saying something simple like " I'm the GM and I'm responsible for the putting together this roster and it fell short of what was needed and that's on me ". Instead he took the path he did.
John Mara has come across as indecisive and weak .
Every commentator I heard speak today were unanimous in their view that the Giants roster was weak and didn't have enough talent to succeed and the majority of them questioned how Coughlin could be let go and not Reese.
First the tremendous respect and genuine affection that the players and former players have for Tom.
Jerry's reputation took a big hit today, in my opinion , not because of the issues surrounding the state of the Giant's roster but his trying to shift the blame . Instead of being a man and just saying something simple like " I'm the GM and I'm responsible for the putting together this roster and it fell short of what was needed and that's on me ". Instead he took the path he did.
John Mara has come across as indecisive and weak .
Every commentator I heard speak today were unanimous in their view that the Giants roster was weak and didn't have enough talent to succeed and the majority of them questioned how Coughlin could be let go and not Reese.
Mara and Reese are all over the place. They came off significantly worse than the man walking out of the door. This is a big reason why they've had 3 consecutive losing years. It's not all the coach.
Coughlin looked like the inspirational leader and showing why he's received the outpouring of touching tributes by players that you don't see anywhere these days.
It's not good. And Mara offers Coughlin a job after he acknowledges the flawed roster? Unbelievable stuff.
They just took the heart out of the locker room too. Buckle your seat belts.
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They are all over the place. Francessa really did a good job today with Mara. He called him out at least twice when Mara mentioned he didn't fire Coughlin and then when he said well Coughlin made it easier with his decision to step aside. Also called him out how Mara said Ascori wanted Coughlin all along the way.
I think Mara does think like his father in that if you are 9-7 or at least playing meaningful games in December the season was a success. But, he specifically mentioned that Ravens game where they were blown out a few years ago about Coughlin.
The locker room will forget all about that stuff quick especially with FAs. And Mara mentioned the $50 million they have to work with on WFAN.
The staying on is ridiculous and Mara did acknowledge Coughlin said he does not want to be looking over somebody's shoulder. I mean is he trying to save face with that offer?
I'd love to see the Giants get Shaq Lawson (Clemson) in the draft. Lead the country in tackles for losses (23.5) and can play the run and rush the passer (82 tackles and 10.5 sacks). The kid will go in the first round for sure and is very fast and strong. I'd also like to see us get a LB. We should look to the free agent market for a few experienced safeties if they really want to make a jump. Note: I'm a huge Clemson fan so I'm partial but the kid is so much fun to watch.
I don't think he's trying to save face. It's shocking that he literally said they didn't give Coughlin enough talent this year and they want him to considering coming back to advise on personnel.
What if TC takes it? He might. Kim Jones reported it was possible. Today was messy and doesn't inspire leadership at a time they need it most.
My personal belief is that Coughlin and his staff did well with this roster in putting it in position to win games unfortunately the record didn't reflect it. All offseason they knew that Cruz (WR2) and Beason (MLB) were gambles off major injuries and that Beatty (LT) would be out in May, then they lost almost every unproven rookie they thought could play safety in Training Camp (Thomas, Bennett, Berhe). They did nothing to replace those important positions on a football field and had an indictable lack of depth behind them. But they hung in there well regardless.
The NFL had more than 50% of all its games decided by 7 points or less this year. The Giants played a ton of tight games and didn't pull them out for a combination of reasons including some poor game management at times for sure, but more importantly because of a fundamental flaw on defense and an alarming lack of depth again. This needs to be fixed for sustained success. How many times were the same guys beat over and over again in the final minute? They also lost 3 games when they scored 30, 35, and 49 points and a 4th in OT where they surrendered more than 200 yards in the final 15 game minutes. What strategy conceals that?
They need (in priority order):
1). A pass rush. Did they not learn anything from SB42 and SB46? But then again, Osi, Tuck, and Kiwi were not drafted by Reese, LOL. A pass rush is the tide that rises all else. Get a premier player for once. They haven't done that since signing Antrel Rolle.
2). They need a complete set of new LB's and safeties. They tried to go cheap last offseason and it torched them. You cannot be in competitive games and expect to win by relying on the likes of Dahl, Meriweather, Taylor, Unga, Casillas, and Thomas to make stops in the back-7. Especially without a pass rush. They should've paid McCourty.
3). More help on the OL. Want to put Beatty back at tackle which is why they moved Pugh to guard after drafting Flowers? Fine. But you need more depth. Newhouse and Jerry? Please.
4). A second WR. I'm done with Reuben Randle. He cannot play. His the biggest stat-padder I've seen, a garbage time player. Never there for a big play; the INT in Washington, the INT versus the Jets, the drop in NO. Terrible situational player. Not a heady player. Do not need any more of these types on the team.
...Oh, and new coaching staff. LOL
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Joey Bosa will be gone by the time the Giants pick so Lawson would be a good pick. What is the status of his knee injury he got against OU? Really need some speed on D also.
His knee will be OK. Strained MCL. He will not be 100% for Monday night but he may play. He's 6-3, 270 and very quick and strong. He will be a very good pro IMO. With the Giants at #10 he may be a reach depending on how the draft goes but he will be gone by the 15th to 20th pick for sure. Rex Ryan who is a very good defensive talent evaluator loves him.
as a lifelong ny football giants fan that has had the privilege of 2 chips as a little guy and two more in my adulthood at the press conferences today tc exited with such class and grace and in working in sports media it is uncanny to see such an outpouring of nice words from former and current players that have more to do with off the field relationship between player and coach than what took place on the field, i feel that both mara and reese came off very subpar today
mara says personnel is at fault and that it is up to reese to fix but for coughlin to go it was just time
mara says personnel is at fault and that it is up to reese to fix but for coughlin to go it was just time
Every mock draft you see has the Giants with a different pick in the first round , the overwhelming first round predictions are on defense with names like Buckner, a DE from Oregon, to Alexander a CB from Clemson, to Myles Jack a LB from UCLA and even a RB, Elliott from OHIO St.and that will change every time a new mock draft is released. The question is with so many needs do the Giants return to best player available or do they go to best player available on defense or draft to fill a need like last year. What the Giants do in free agency will also affect their draft board and remember who the new coach is will play a role in what free agents will look at the Giants.
Going to be a very interesting off-season.
Good summary Piratz. I would just add this observation . Just as we talk about depth with SH there is a definite need to add quality depth on the Giants. You note that we need to add a second WR , I agree but you need to add back-ups as every team loses players to injury. In addition to adding OL to fill out the starters do we really want back-ups like Jerry or Newhouse.
I've seen a few very early mock drafts with the Giants taking Lawson at 10. I haven't seen enough of him, but he projects to be the type of player the Giants sorely lack based on everything I've read.
We will see what happens. The team has glaring holes all over the defensive side of the ball. If the Giants think this team is good enough to win now, I'd go for an impact player on defense.
Is Beatty part of the future? Is Pugh a tackle or a guard? The Giants need to figure that out, because I would not be against taking an OT at 10 if the Giants project Pugh at guard for the long-term and move on from Beatty (who is not very good). This would have less of an impact on next year's team, unless they think the player can slide in and start at RT in year one, but would give the Giants a strong foundation for the future.
DE, DT, OT, MLB, OLB, SS, FS are the only positions I'd consider at 10. Maybe CB if the Giants let Prince walk. I know the Giants historically take the best player on the board, but this year they need to bypass value for need. If they took a WR at 10, for example, who fell further than expected I would be disappointed.
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I'm a Clemson fan (going to the Natty this weekend) and Mackenzie Alexander is a very good player but he is only a sophomore. He should stay at Clemson for another year. Quick CB who needs some more seasoning IMO. Myles Jack is good but I think the Giants need to focus on the D line or LB for their first pick and get some experienced safeties in free agency.
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Just like college BB where players come out before they're ready to play in the NBA, you see the same thing in college FB. Yet every year players who aren't ready declare for the draft and that's never going to change.
Thank you, hallgrad, and could not agree more. Not only did the Giants fail at starting-level positions in key areas over the years, they also did not create any quality depth, especially in positions they knew were injury prone or unproven. That's why you have guys like Newhouse, Dahl, Unga, Casillas, Wynn, and so forth playing far too many snaps. This is where all those 2nd, 3rd, and 4th round busts come into play for literally a 4-5 year period of drafting. That's going to take another few more good drafts, but in the meantime they need to address what they can in FA on defense.
They need to have a huge offseason in player acquisitions. Like the Jets did last year in addressing their needs on offense. Then you're going to have to sit through at least a full season for the new coach to establish an identity, cohesion, and a culture as well. Will he be able to lead and motivate when things hit the fan? Especially in this market. That takes time.
In the meantime you hope the talent they do have on offense with some difference makers on defense can improve the product this year by another few wins. But that assumes you're going to get the same level of effort, focus, and clarity of scheme, too. That goes back to whomever the new HC is. They're also playing the AFC North and NFC Central next year. A bit more challenging.
Round and round we go!
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Since Reese is staying and the Giants are banking on the fact it was largely coaching, not personnel, pretty fair game to assess him and what's next. Good stuff here: http://www.bigblueview.com/2016/1/6/10721282/ny-giants-nfl-draft-jerry-reese-mid-to-late-roundpicks
From 2010-2013 only two of the 17 players selected, Jacquian Williams and Markus Kuhn, have accumulated a value above the average for the year and round in which they were drafted. There was an uptick in 2014, with Andre Williams (Round 4) and Devon Kennard (Round 5) both having an Approximate Value above where they were drafted.
Carl Banks' "Scholarship Players."
In addition their evaluation, I would also add that the Giants' performances in Rounds 1-3 in these years is even more indictable, especially the 2010-12 classes which should’ve been the leaders of the recent losing teams. Created a huge hole. It’s quite possible none of these players from those years will even be on the roster next season (Randle and Hosley should be gone without question). The only two worth a look are JPP and Prince and that’s lukewarm at best, IMO.
From 2010-2013 only two of the 17 players selected, Jacquian Williams and Markus Kuhn, have accumulated a value above the average for the year and round in which they were drafted. There was an uptick in 2014, with Andre Williams (Round 4) and Devon Kennard (Round 5) both having an Approximate Value above where they were drafted.
Carl Banks' "Scholarship Players."
In addition their evaluation, I would also add that the Giants' performances in Rounds 1-3 in these years is even more indictable, especially the 2010-12 classes which should’ve been the leaders of the recent losing teams. Created a huge hole. It’s quite possible none of these players from those years will even be on the roster next season (Randle and Hosley should be gone without question). The only two worth a look are JPP and Prince and that’s lukewarm at best, IMO.
Great article. I hope the same reporter presents those facts to Reese the next time he holds a press conference.
Williams did have something like 700 yards and 7 TDs his rookie year. I'm sure that's why - not an accurate representation of how poor of a player he is.
As hallball alluded to, it's definitely based on raw production numbers from what Andre Williams has done versus the average 4th Rounder in 2014.
He had production because he was basically the only back on the roster in 2014. His carries went from 217 to 88 this year with Jennings back healthy and Vereen in the mix. This is another area where the disconnect is evident because Williams doesn't fit the style of the McAdoo offense. He's a north-south power running that needs 25-30 carries. He doesn't have good vision, doesn't have quick feet (agility, not speed), nor does he catch the ball well. Those are all components required of a McAdoo RB.
My guess he was the top player on Reese's board at that pick.
When you're talking about rebuilding the Giant roster you have to factor in that there are 30 + players eligible for free agency and I can see a large number of them not being resigned plus there are others who will be cut to gain cap space and the players who may fall in that category would be Beatty, Cruz, Schwartz and Beason. The point is that there could be a huge number of new faces on this roster and bringing in that number of players who are more talented then they're replacing is a daunting challenge and one of the reasons I don't believe it can be done in one year despite what Reese thinks.
Oh man. I think you're forgetting two DPOY candidates in Aaron Donald and Khalil Mack. Anthony Barr has turned out to be a very good pro, Bortles looks promising, Zack Martin is a pro bowler for the Cowboys, C.J Mosley has been good for the Ravens, Pryor looks pretty good for the Jets, and I'm sure there are others.
It may not have been as deep as some other drafts (I honestly don't know for comparison) but the first round had some studs.
I always thought Wellington was a horrible owner & it looks as though John is a chip off the old block. Before the salary cap was instituted, the Giants never spent any money. Since they had a long waiting list of season ticket holders, they didn't care. They were so bad that Pete Roselle finally made Wellington hire George Young as his GM. That's when things began to change.
I'd like to see the Giants take that Tackle from Old Miss with their pick if he's still there. They'd have bookend tackles for the next decade; a winning formula.
Agreed. The one positive about that list you mention is that other than Schwartz for 3/4 of a season, none of them contributed anything to team this year anyway. Beatty is probably the most intriguing one to me if they restructure because the nature of the injury isn't as extensive, he's in his prime, and he's at least an average OT, which they need on the RH side.
The other ones have such extensive injuries, age, and basically DINP's for two years that it's probably over. So it's an influx of cash. You're replacing nothing. I also would not pay Prince. He'd be about 4th or 5th on my defensive priority list behind pass rushers, 3-down LB, and safety. CB's are easier to find. Too many holes to fill and the middle of the field is more critical.
Plus you're also talking a team of "independent contractors" as Paul Schwartz put it one time. A bunch of new guys, a new coach, and an entirely new operation/culture for everyone. Will take some time, but you have a GM that's out of time. So you're likely going to be relying on an unproven to step in. That usually doesn’t work out well, especially in New York for a franchise coming off 3 consecutive losing seasons with a GM on the hot seat with a dire need to rebuild personnel.
Powder keg of circumstances. What if they go 6-10 again? Or worse? Patience with the new coach, or they blast out the GM?
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10
LAQUON TREADWELL
WR, Ole Miss
Eli Manning will need more help along the line at some point, but ... man, Treadwell and Odell Beckham Jr. together? Much like the Beckham pick a couple years back, this would be a best-player-available choice of a prospect who just might be a superstar. Bonus: He's a tenacious blocker downfield in the run game.
http://www.si.com/nfl/2016/01/06/2016-nfl-mock-draft-laremy-tunsil-jared-goff
http://www.si.com/nfl/2016/01/06/2016-nfl-mock-draft-laremy-tunsil-jared-goff
Something like this would make me very unhappy, unless the Giants were somehow able to address all of their other needs in free agency.
LAQUON TREADWELL
WR, Ole Miss
Eli Manning will need more help along the line at some point, but ... man, Treadwell and Odell Beckham Jr. together? Much like the Beckham pick a couple years back, this would be a best-player-available choice of a prospect who just might be a superstar. Bonus: He's a tenacious blocker downfield in the run game.
http://www.si.com/nfl/2016/01/06/2016-nfl-mock-draft-laremy-tunsil-jared-goff
http://www.si.com/nfl/2016/01/06/2016-nfl-mock-draft-laremy-tunsil-jared-goff
Something like this would make me very unhappy, unless the Giants were somehow able to address all of their other needs in free agency.
My biggest fear is that Reese knows he's on the hot seat, goes out and tries to make a splash similar to the "Dream Team" Eagles a few years back, and the entire thing falls apart.
It's an interesting predicament. Many don't believe this team has the talent to compete and a rebuild is in order, but the person making the calls thinks this team is a player or two away from contention. Will he make decisions based on improving the team in the short-term that may greatly impact the long-term prospects of the franchise or will he make the best decision for the Giants, even if it makes another poor season a possibility? It'll be interesting.
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10
LAQUON TREADWELL
WR, Ole Miss
Eli Manning will need more help along the line at some point, but ... man, Treadwell and Odell Beckham Jr. together? Much like the Beckham pick a couple years back, this would be a best-player-available choice of a prospect who just might be a superstar. Bonus: He's a tenacious blocker downfield in the run game.
http://www.si.com/nfl/2016/01/06/2016-nfl-mock-draft-laremy-tunsil-jared-goff
Something like this would make me very unhappy, unless the Giants were somehow able to address all of their other needs in free agency.
Treadwell is a beast check out his performance in the Sugar Bowl on New Year's Day.3 TD catches including a one handed catch and is one of the most physical receivers I have ever seen. Dez Bryant without the baggage. He had a great year after a horrific injury last year. He is a junior and it is possible he may not declare. Jim Kelly's nephew is the QB and he and all the fans were chanting 1 more year for him after the Sugar Bowl.
This is a good draft and it really is going to be interesting with the Giants this offseason. The ND LB Jaylon Smith was a sure top 10 pick until his knee injury which changes things some.
This scares me too. A lot of the concentration has been on Reese's draft performance. What I'm more scared about is allowing him to spend $50 million. If he screws this up, he will handcuff the team for at least 5 years. It's not every year in the NFL you have $50 million in cap space.
If the Giants go offense in the first round my # 1 pick was a WR and Treadwell was my choice but I seriously doubt he will be available at #10. Also everything you read about him is that he's very coachable , great in the locker room and a very hard worker. What a great pair of WR's if you pair up Treadwell with ODB.
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I like Treadwell as a player, but I don't know how much it helps to have two elite WRs and glaring holes in other key positions. The defense is so god awful that I think you've gotta go with the best defensive player on the board with the pick. You know more than I when it comes to college football and if Treadwell is as good as advertised it may not be the worst decision, but I worry about the lack of young talent on defense more than anything else.
On the question of Beatty he is not an OL worth $9 mil a year nor is Cruz worth what his contract calls for and the only way I keep them is if they take a large pay cut.
One of my principal concerns is that if Reese is truly on the hot seat he may sign free agents that will help next year but are not signings that help build a team that's competitive for multi years and that means overpaying and giving more years then makes sense.
Lovie Smith has a lot of the prerequisites you'd be looking for, I think. Personally I'm a bit lukewarm on him right now, however, he has extensive NFL HC experience, has led a team to a SB, has a defensive lean, and seems good with the players.
89-87 career record as a head coach, 6 playoff appearances in 11 years. You could do worse, but for whatever reason I'm not crazy about him.
With that said, I have absolutely no idea who I want the Giants to hire.
Would be interesting if the Eagles go after McAdoo while we are holding our weaner trying to figure out what to do. That would put a dent in the Giants plans to either hire a HC and retain McAdoo or hire McAdoo. This whole process scares me but we could do much worse than Lovie Smith.
I like McAdoo, but have no clue if the guy is ready to lead a team.
Any of these unproven candidates would need to be quite strong given the job ahead, compounded by who you are replacing and the media demands of the job. It's a big gamble when you're going to be having a team with an influx of new faces and veteran FA's that need to perform well immediately.
I would not be shocked if you see McAdoo as the HC, Spags as the DC, and TC in an advisory role. Unconventional, but I think a possibility. It allows this weak leadership to blame someone for 3 losing seasons (TC's coaching), but also allows Mara to retain.
Any of these unproven candidates would need to be quite strong given the job ahead, compounded by who you are replacing and the media demands of the job. It's a big gamble when you're going to be having a team with an influx of new faces and veteran FA's that need to perform well immediately.
I would not be shocked if you see McAdoo as the HC, Spags as the DC, and TC in an advisory role. Unconventional, but I think a possibility. It allows this weak leadership to blame someone for 3 losing seasons (TC's coaching), but also allows Mara to retain.
This sport is really becoming some completely different.
Parity, rule changes, CBA changes, and the emerging anxiousness and with lack of patience with team and program building for a sport arguably more heavily reliant on the principles of "team" and roster more than any other. NFL owners are increasingly becoming caricatures. A far cry from the football guys that developed the league.
Parity, rule changes, CBA changes, and the emerging anxiousness and with lack of patience with team and program building for a sport arguably more heavily reliant on the principles of "team" and roster more than any other. NFL owners are increasingly becoming caricatures. A far cry from the football guys that developed the league.
Hiring a head coach in the NFL comes down to recycling former head coaches or going with a coordinator or , on rare occasions, a coach who left voluntarily to take a TV job decides to come back . Be interesting to see which way Giants go but whichever way they go I don't see a proven coach like Sean Peyton in the pool of candidates. In point of fact TC may be one of the top candidates out there for any open position.
