And Francessa keeps saying that on WFAN. He has been saying that McAdoo was forced on Coughlin and as on offense type coach that is not the type of system Coughlin wants. Even going as far to say this is not Tom's team and he should have been let go last year.
OT: Tom Coughlin
- Thread starter Piratz
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And Francessa keeps saying that on WFAN. He has been saying that McAdoo was forced on Coughlin and as on offense type coach that is not the type of system Coughlin wants. Even going as far to say this is not Tom's team and he should have been let go last year.
Whether or not this true is something I'm sure new coaching candidates will be interested to know. It's quite meddlesome and sets a precedent. If they're going to mess with Tom Coughlin's staff, they'll mess with your staff.
I really liked Coach Coughlin as the Giant coach, but it was time to move on. I don't
care if he coaches the Eagles or Cowboys, we have to fix the Giants. Obviously, there
is a lack of talent on defense and that's where the focus has to be.
Let's be fair the Giants still controlled their own destiny when they played at Washington
and they played like crap and looked soft for most of that game. That's on the coaching staff
in my opinion. Coaching lost that very first important game against the Cowboys and that set the tone for one meltdown after another. The discipline was not there as it had been in the past. Moore and OBJ as the prime examples. The constant late season collapses had become the norm. The Giants have lost so many games because they have not been able
to expand on leads. That being the case even when they had solid OL play and with Eli at the helm in his prime. On 2 occasions the punter needed to kick the ball out of bounds on the last play of the game and both times they got burned by not doing so. This year Coughlin
was so Psyched out by his defense that his decision making on how to approach late game offensive sets was all over the map.
I would say that this season the Giants were ready to play except for the Eagles and the prior mentioned Washington game. In the past few years we had witnessed the Giants get completely destroyed in late season road games, no shows if you will.
The question can't be who the best available coach is out there? The question is who is the best candidate from this point for the future of the Giants. I guess my point is that Coach Coughlin is on the downswing of his coaching career. 12 years is a nice run in this current NFL.
care if he coaches the Eagles or Cowboys, we have to fix the Giants. Obviously, there
is a lack of talent on defense and that's where the focus has to be.
Let's be fair the Giants still controlled their own destiny when they played at Washington
and they played like crap and looked soft for most of that game. That's on the coaching staff
in my opinion. Coaching lost that very first important game against the Cowboys and that set the tone for one meltdown after another. The discipline was not there as it had been in the past. Moore and OBJ as the prime examples. The constant late season collapses had become the norm. The Giants have lost so many games because they have not been able
to expand on leads. That being the case even when they had solid OL play and with Eli at the helm in his prime. On 2 occasions the punter needed to kick the ball out of bounds on the last play of the game and both times they got burned by not doing so. This year Coughlin
was so Psyched out by his defense that his decision making on how to approach late game offensive sets was all over the map.
I would say that this season the Giants were ready to play except for the Eagles and the prior mentioned Washington game. In the past few years we had witnessed the Giants get completely destroyed in late season road games, no shows if you will.
The question can't be who the best available coach is out there? The question is who is the best candidate from this point for the future of the Giants. I guess my point is that Coach Coughlin is on the downswing of his coaching career. 12 years is a nice run in this current NFL.
The search for Tom's replacement for me has become more about who I don't want rather then who I do want as I don't see a candidate that stands out with a proven record like Sean Peyton. I certainly don't want Marrone, or Chip Kelly , or Lovie Smith and certainly no college coach with no NFL experience. People in the media keep saying how the Giants job is one of the most coveted in football and who the Giant's hire should help answer that question if it is.
I think it's likely someone with experience needed for many reasons:
1. There will be lots of personnel changes. You need a guy that can lead a room to facilitate that and teach the new scheme/culture.
2. The Gians have a nice offensive core but need an entirely new defense. What's the core there? DRC, Collins, Hankins, maybe Bromley/Owa? That's it. That requires a plan, not an experiment.
3. NYC market in 2016. Need someone that can handle himself and is comfortable.
4. GM on the hot seat. Have to be savvy to navigate.
5. Entire organization loved Coughlin. To fill in after 12 years and 2 titles is not for the squeamish. This is as much a culture change as coaching strategy. There will be lots of skeptical eyes. Think of your own career and such change.
1. There will be lots of personnel changes. You need a guy that can lead a room to facilitate that and teach the new scheme/culture.
2. The Gians have a nice offensive core but need an entirely new defense. What's the core there? DRC, Collins, Hankins, maybe Bromley/Owa? That's it. That requires a plan, not an experiment.
3. NYC market in 2016. Need someone that can handle himself and is comfortable.
4. GM on the hot seat. Have to be savvy to navigate.
5. Entire organization loved Coughlin. To fill in after 12 years and 2 titles is not for the squeamish. This is as much a culture change as coaching strategy. There will be lots of skeptical eyes. Think of your own career and such change.
Piratz
What you say is true and particularly true about needing a culture change but my open question is whether there are the right people to lead that change and with Mara, Tisch and Reese in charge I'm not sure it will happen . Changing the culture of any organization requires strong leadership at the top and with what we've seen since the season ended I don't see that leadership in place.
McAdoo is a tough choice for me as he has no track record. So many issues involved with
being a NYC Market head coach. He seems more like a QB coach than a head coach. Spags
had a rough go as a head coach. Not sure on him either. Francesa actually brought up Mangini as someone who is now prepared to get back into it.
I'm not so concerned with the Giant leadership team. The GM has to pick it up.
being a NYC Market head coach. He seems more like a QB coach than a head coach. Spags
had a rough go as a head coach. Not sure on him either. Francesa actually brought up Mangini as someone who is now prepared to get back into it.
I'm not so concerned with the Giant leadership team. The GM has to pick it up.
don
dont touch any patriots; great when there under bill b but never good on their own, big track record
Agreed. How you sit through 4 playoff-less seasons and 3 losing seasons for the first time in 35+ years and not clean out the whole operation is beyond me. This is not because the coach got old. Insulting.
That type of extensive failure is beyond just the coach. And the kicker is they acknowledged that! Very weak.
First time they've gone through this and early results are revealing.
Piratz
I left out one element that's crucial to have success in changing an organization's culture besides leadership , it's having a strategic vision of what you want the culture to be and a plan to get there. Haven't heard one word on any of those elements from the Giants organization.
I agree with the above about vision. But, Mara seems to be implying that they are looking at that by saying the search will be extensive. And apparently, it was not a house divided on Coughlin and they did not like how the OBJ situtation was handled.
http://nypost.com/2016/01/08/why-beckhams-antics-gave-coughlin-extra-push-out-the-door/
OBJ is an issue for the next coach too. We'll see.
This will be the biggest decision of the John Mara/Steve Tisch Era, bigger than forcing Coughlin out. It's not hard to pin bad seasons on a coach. It is hard to find a good coach. Mara has ripped his GM a new one publicly, yet kept him, and has set him up if they continue losing, plus their two-time SB MVP QB is in the twlight of his career simultaneously.
They really need a leader to come in here immediately. That's going to be hard to find. They interviewed Doug Marrone today. Mike Smith up on Monday and of course TC's coordinators. Oh boy. That'll take the count to 6 already. Extensive, indeed. And meandering. Not sure they know what they want.
McAdoo
Spagnuolo
Austin
Gase
Marrone
Smith
This will be the biggest decision of the John Mara/Steve Tisch Era, bigger than forcing Coughlin out. It's not hard to pin bad seasons on a coach. It is hard to find a good coach. Mara has ripped his GM a new one publicly, yet kept him, and has set him up if they continue losing, plus their two-time SB MVP QB is in the twlight of his career simultaneously.
They really need a leader to come in here immediately. That's going to be hard to find. They interviewed Doug Marrone today. Mike Smith up on Monday and of course TC's coordinators. Oh boy. That'll take the count to 6 already. Extensive, indeed. And meandering. Not sure they know what they want.
McAdoo
Spagnuolo
Austin
Gase
Marrone
Smith
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It isn't a question of the search being extensive it's about the quality of the pool of candidates your search produces. Doug Marrone , Lovie Smith , now Mike Smith , the former head coach at Atlanta! All I need is to see us interviewing Greg Schiano and my one drink before dinner will become two drinks.
Mike Smith up today and evidently Hue Jackson.
Smith is an interesting candidate. Seems ho-hum, but when you peel it back he fits a lot of what I think are the criteria for where the franchise is at the moment: He's a defensive-minded coach, has won big in the regular season, has advanced a team to a conference title game. He also seems to have a good demeanor.
Smith is an interesting candidate. Seems ho-hum, but when you peel it back he fits a lot of what I think are the criteria for where the franchise is at the moment: He's a defensive-minded coach, has won big in the regular season, has advanced a team to a conference title game. He also seems to have a good demeanor.
One of the biggest knocks on Smith when he was at Atlanta was that he wasn't firm enough with his players and that he let a lot of players " skate" instead of demanding more from them. Also when Smith was fired after the 2014 season the Falcons finished last in the league on defense , not a great recommendation for a team who's biggest issue is defense.
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"The players the Giants drafted since Jerry Reese became GM in 2007 combined to play a league-low 10,767 offensive and defensive snaps in the NFL this season. Other teams' picks over the same span averaged 16,448 snaps per team, or about 53 percent more snaps than the Giants' selections."
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york-gi...g-stat-on-how-bad-the-giants-are-at-the-draft
Jerry Reese really did himself no favors by calling out that reporter. I hope someone presents these facts to him at his next presser.
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york-gi...g-stat-on-how-bad-the-giants-are-at-the-draft
Jerry Reese really did himself no favors by calling out that reporter. I hope someone presents these facts to him at his next presser.
He'll just be more defensive about it like he was when the issue was first raised to him. He'll keep pointing to the team being competitive this year and losing 8 games by a total of 26 points, totally discounting the job the staff did in coaching them up to be in that position before being undone but what is the most important attribute of any team in the NFL: Game-breaking talent on both sides of the ball. They could not get stops consistently enough.
The team has had 3 consecutive losing seasons, but I guess it's all because the coach got "old". They all should've been shown the door if Mara/Tisch wanted change.
The drop-off on Smith's teams is pretty astounding. His 2012 team made the NFC Championship game then went 4-12 and 6-10 to end his tenure. Not sure if it was personnel or what, but that's nuts.
2008 = 11-5, 0-1
2009 = 9-7
2010 = 13-3, 0-1
2011 = 10-6, 0-1
2012 = 13-3, 1-1
2013 = 4-12
2014 = 6-10
2008 = 11-5, 0-1
2009 = 9-7
2010 = 13-3, 0-1
2011 = 10-6, 0-1
2012 = 13-3, 1-1
2013 = 4-12
2014 = 6-10
I don't care for the Giants or Eagles, but if Coughlin goes to Philly, I'll be rooting for them to beat NYG twice every year -- and laughing.
Speaking of, arguably the biggest turning point of the season was that game against them before the bye. Could've gone to 6-4. Literally just needed to catch this interception!!!
Every Matrix that shows draft success over the past 6 or 7 years clearly demonstrates what a horrible job that the R & R ( Reese & Ross ) boys have done yet the Giant ownership has totally ignored the facts and retained them and to expect anything to change is unrealistic. The reality is that the Giant talent evaluation and acquisition , both thru the draft and free agency is fundamentally flawed .
John Mara stood in front of everyone two years ago and spoke about the drafting process. It was already clear then that they got nothing from those recent drafts and had many projects (2010-13). That next draft (2014) they began to switch up their draft strategy and got away from those gambles and more to team players that seemed to fit immediate needs. I have no idea what was changed internally to facilitate that, but the drafts have been moderately better since.
Need another season or two to be sure, but that has probably helped Reese much in the same way finishing moderately improved this year would've helped Coughlin. I don't agree with it and it does not erase not doing enough in FA last year and rolling out the defensive personnel they did this year - which everyone knew was suspect before the season - but just a thought.
2014
1 12 Odell Beckham, Jr.
2 43 Weston Richburg
3 74 Jay Bromley
4 113 Andre Williams
5 152 Nat Berhe
5 174 Devon Kennard
6 187 Bennett Jackson
2015
1 9 Ereck Flowers
2 33 Landon Collins
3 74 Owamagbe Odighizuwa
5 144 Mykkele Thompson
6 186 Geremy Davis
7 226 Bobby Hart
Need another season or two to be sure, but that has probably helped Reese much in the same way finishing moderately improved this year would've helped Coughlin. I don't agree with it and it does not erase not doing enough in FA last year and rolling out the defensive personnel they did this year - which everyone knew was suspect before the season - but just a thought.
2014
1 12 Odell Beckham, Jr.
2 43 Weston Richburg
3 74 Jay Bromley
4 113 Andre Williams
5 152 Nat Berhe
5 174 Devon Kennard
6 187 Bennett Jackson
2015
1 9 Ereck Flowers
2 33 Landon Collins
3 74 Owamagbe Odighizuwa
5 144 Mykkele Thompson
6 186 Geremy Davis
7 226 Bobby Hart
Piratz
Just look at this as an example of how the Giants drafts have impacted this team.
Here's how we acquired our LB's.
1 draft choice- Kennard
1 by trade - Beason
1 undrafted free agent- Herzlich
6 unrestricted free agents; Casillas,Thomas, Brinkley, Johnson, Morris , Unga
Our tight ends .
2 undrafted free agents ; Tye , LaCross
3 unrestricted free agents ; Donnel, Cunningham, Fells
Two key positions with only one drafted player on the roster
Just look at this as an example of how the Giants drafts have impacted this team.
Here's how we acquired our LB's.
1 draft choice- Kennard
1 by trade - Beason
1 undrafted free agent- Herzlich
6 unrestricted free agents; Casillas,Thomas, Brinkley, Johnson, Morris , Unga
Our tight ends .
2 undrafted free agents ; Tye , LaCross
3 unrestricted free agents ; Donnel, Cunningham, Fells
Two key positions with only one drafted player on the roster
He had to trade for Beason in 2013 because the defense was a joke even then. Remember those big blowouts early in the 0-6 start? It was the trade for Beason and the emergence of Will Hill that gave them a defense in the middle.
That's a staggering number. It's really incredible, isn't it? In this era and he goes light on the middle of the field. The LB position has boggled my mind for years. I think the only LB he's selected in 4-5 years was Kennard and he was a 5th round draft choice who fell due to injuries, showed promise, yet then missed a ton of games due to... injury!
Casillas was undrafted by the Saints and the Giants are his 4th team in 4 seasons. A ST's player. Brinkley was released by 3 different organizations. Unga was another undrafted player who missed all of last year with injury. So it's not like they've drafted poorly but have gone out and signed big time players. These guys make nothing. And this is what he went into the season with in addition to the problems at safety.
Think back to all the games this year where various linebackers were slaughtered in coverage while the other team was in a 2-minute offense at the end of a close game.
It's criminal this guy wasn't shown the door alongside Coughlin. The amount of guys drafted by this guy who either cannot play or are no longer in the league is insane.
That's a staggering number. It's really incredible, isn't it? In this era and he goes light on the middle of the field. The LB position has boggled my mind for years. I think the only LB he's selected in 4-5 years was Kennard and he was a 5th round draft choice who fell due to injuries, showed promise, yet then missed a ton of games due to... injury!
Casillas was undrafted by the Saints and the Giants are his 4th team in 4 seasons. A ST's player. Brinkley was released by 3 different organizations. Unga was another undrafted player who missed all of last year with injury. So it's not like they've drafted poorly but have gone out and signed big time players. These guys make nothing. And this is what he went into the season with in addition to the problems at safety.
Think back to all the games this year where various linebackers were slaughtered in coverage while the other team was in a 2-minute offense at the end of a close game.
It's criminal this guy wasn't shown the door alongside Coughlin. The amount of guys drafted by this guy who either cannot play or are no longer in the league is insane.
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Piratz
What is even more revealing is the ineptness of the R & R draft record with LB's.
2008- Rd-4 Bryan Kehl , Rd-6 Jonathan Goff
2009- Rd-2 Clint Sintin
2010- Rd-4 Phillip Dillard , Rd-6 Adrian Tracy
2011- Rd-6 Greg Jones , Rd-6 Jacquawin Williams
2012- None
2013- None
2014- Rd-5 Devon Kennard
And only one is still on the roster, a 2014 pick.
Is there anybody on this list that excites Giants fans or thinks these candidates are an upgrade over Coughlin? I just don't see it.
Steve Serby wrote about this today in the NY Post.
And guess what: Unless Nick Saban, best coach in America not named Bill Belichick, decides that he has achieved everything a man can achieve at Alabama, that he has plenty to prove in the NFL after flopping with the Dolphins and an offer he cannot refuse with the same personnel power that Coughlin wielded alongside Jerry Reese is his for the taking, well, Miss America ain’t walking through that door.
Sorry, but it is too late now to realize that the best candidate on the open market is none other than the 69-year-old coach who delivered you two Super Bowls with Eli Manning.
http://nypost.com/2016/01/11/empty-handed-giants-ditched-their-best-coach-candidate/
You always have to have a list prepared if you're going to make a move, especially when you're moving out a guy of Coughlin's stature. You cannot tell me they assessed what was out there and said, "Yep, this will be better."
You have a very small window of years left with Eli Manning too. They've already wasted two of them. Sigh.
The personnel Reese has acquired and drafted has been deplorable. He's repeatedly shown a failure to properly plan in advance. For example, he only got serious about devoting high-round valuable picks to rebuilding the offensive line after it imploded. Same with the safety position. And hallgrad already detailed TE and LB.
Those are the decisions a GM makes and where the difference lies between being a scout and the decision maker. It shows. Accorsi strategically built his teams inside-out. Reese builds his team based on raw athleticism available at the time he picks.
Everybody has hits and misses. But his proportion is totally skewed as proven out by a series of measures the past week. That's why they're 19-29 over the past 3 seasons. But they'll indirectly blame Coughlin and well, maybe we'll see why it wasn't just TC.
You have a very small window of years left with Eli Manning too. They've already wasted two of them. Sigh.
The personnel Reese has acquired and drafted has been deplorable. He's repeatedly shown a failure to properly plan in advance. For example, he only got serious about devoting high-round valuable picks to rebuilding the offensive line after it imploded. Same with the safety position. And hallgrad already detailed TE and LB.
Those are the decisions a GM makes and where the difference lies between being a scout and the decision maker. It shows. Accorsi strategically built his teams inside-out. Reese builds his team based on raw athleticism available at the time he picks.
Everybody has hits and misses. But his proportion is totally skewed as proven out by a series of measures the past week. That's why they're 19-29 over the past 3 seasons. But they'll indirectly blame Coughlin and well, maybe we'll see why it wasn't just TC.
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The simple answer is no and what is the most troublesome is that going into the 2015 season, Mara, Tisch and Reese were fully aware that Coughlin was on the hot seat and they should have been fully prepared to have their pool of candidates identified and been ready to move quickly. This franchise appears to have morphed into one where they've just a step behind and a step too slow and John Mara and Steve Tisch seem to be unable or unwilling to act decisively .
I like McAdoo. I think he has potential but needs more seasoning. The offense has been much better, but I think some of the kinks in it is a reflection of him learning on the job. I'd like to know what role he had with Eli in that Dallas or Jets games, why the RZ offense struggled so much all season, and what was going on with that running game.
Going from that to running a team? Color me skeptical.
Going from that to running a team? Color me skeptical.
The most puzzling thing to me about the Giants search unless I missed it is why they have not interviewed Josh McDaniels? Too late now - last week (their bye week) was when it had to happen but to me he would be the guy to talk to. My vote now is Mike Smith to clean up the D but I think its gonna be McAdoo.
I'm thinking Mike Smith is probably my preferred candidate. I actually like Spags too ahead of McAdoo, but do not see why a coordinator would be elevated if you're making a clean sweep.
