Queston on Willard

[HALL28]

If you want be even more fair you should re read the paper articles to remind yourself of what he took over. A program known for a nut punch, a drug deal gone bad, a player flat lining. We probably had the worst reputation in the country. How this coach has made everyone forget that is a credit to him. It took time for that to happen. I highly doubt we get these same exact kids if they were class of 2011 or 2012. Everyone would have advised them they have better opportunities.

I would argue the recruiting relationships which had degraded under BG and Orr were a much bigger real life problem than the nut punch or a player getting arrested (happens all over college sports).

Willard has raised the bar of expectations now. After last season, I expected to see this core of juniors make the tournament again. Watching this team in November and December, I don't think that was asking too much. I think we're right to be disappointed if they don't. Willard has not done a good job filling out the roster. All that said, he obviously has another big opportunity next year with 3 seniors + Cale. We need a PG though.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

I would argue the recruiting relationships which had degraded under BG and Orr were a much bigger real life problem than the nut punch or a player getting arrested (happens all over college sports.

I don't think much of the degraded relationships because the AAU coaches, the runners, the high school coaches are not truly connected with the school. When LO and BG left, the relationships they built or burned followed them and were not left with the school. We lost Foye to Nova not because of East Sides connection to LO or Seton Hall changed, but the strength of the relationship of FHJ and East Side. Relationships follow the coach, not the school.

 

[TomD82]

Gonzalez was the only coach who burned bridges with HS coaches particularly Bob Hurley. Orr recruited Laing, Nutter, Copeland and Billmeir from local coaches. He also recruited Toney El while he was at SU and Toney El flat out said he was thinking of leaving SHU until Orr was hired.

Now Orr was not going to be making pizzas for students or smoozing AAU or HS coaches, but he didn't set the program back like Gonzalez did and Willard has had plenty of time to right that. He is the coach who went with the CBA connection, Wilson,Grennan and the transfers like Oliver and Teague.


Plenty of schools could have had IW, but they wanted to stear clear of Tiny Morton.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Plenty of schools could have had IW, but they wanted to stear clear of Tiny Morton.

I would say he won that battle. Rolled the dice and only had Tiny for 1 year, Whithead for 2, and the rest of the crew is still here.

 

[SPK145]

Orr got Seton Hall Kelly Whitney, who off the court was a YUGE, YUGE problem, not only for thr gun assault.

Then again, Ed Cooley walked into a similar situation at Providence and he turned them around much quicker.

 

[Piratefan2009]

The program hasn't gotten worse under Willard.

I agree. I can't think of one area that Willard has made the program worse compared to BG or Orr. Someone else in the thread said it, but this is really about the school looking to be always improving. If the program is a complete joke, we should expect that you go from absolutely terrible, to something not as terrible.

"Complete Garbage" X starting place
"Bad"
"Not Good"
"Neutral"
"Okay" X hopefully not the high watermark

If you get the program to Okay, but then start backsliding, that's a problem. I never said fire Willard this year. I believe I responded to someone else I want to see where we are at 1 or 2 years from now and make an assessment after he's been here for almost a freaking decade.

 

[SHUMatt]

I arrived 40 minutes before last nights game to see the warmups. I wish someone had a tape of that to see how non-serious that practice went. With SHU shooting between 50-60% from the foul line, I wanted to see how many shots were taken from the foul line during practice. The answer = 0 SHOTS !! There was everyone outside trying to take these 3 point shots and a lot of other players standing around.



Years ago people were wondering why our team often gives up big leads to start the games. Seems funny that in year 7 we have the same problem. I got killed on here for my thoughts. Our pre-game consists of our team coming out in different forms of dress, some in full warm-up uniform, some with short and warm-up jacket, some in game uniform. Bottom line is that this already shows no uniformity, lack of purpose and lack of discipline. A large portion of our players actually have headphones on during the pregame. Then like you said, we just shoot three pointers.

Now switch to most of our competitors - Most teams warm up all wearing the same outfits. They do one on one drills, dribbling drills, shoot free throws etc. Bottom line they are preparing for game like situations and getting ready to play.

For those of you who Willard can do no wrong, you will say that Willard gives his players free reign. I say to you and him that he needs to tighten the leash and get his players ready. Show some discipline, have them dressed the same, throw out their headphones, do some drills where they actually break a sweat and for God's sake have them practice free throws.

End of rant. Willard is here for several more years despite what happens the rest of this season. His buddy is his boss and he has a buyout that makes it too costly to get rid of him regardless of who his boss/friend i.

 

[TomD82]

Orr got Seton Hall Kelly Whitney, who off the court was a YUGE, YUGE problem, not only for thr gun assault.

Then again, Ed Cooley walked into a similar situation at Providence and he turned them around much quicker.

Good point on Cooley with players like Peterson, but Whitney was 28 years old when he got into his major trouble long after his playing ended, but he was still hanging around campus.

 

[Pirate64]

Lots of balanced comments here. Yes and we should wait until the season ends before we attack.

But as my friend Phi Kap Jimmy asked yesterday: " Did any schools offer Willard a job after his good run last year? Maybe Holy Cross , but we're not even sure of that".

He doesn't seem to be in demand.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Lots of balanced comments here. Yes and we should wait until the season ends before we attack.

But as my friend Phi Kap Jimmy asked yesterday: " Did any schools offer Willard a job after his good run last year? Maybe Holy Cross , but we're not even sure of that".

He doesn't seem to be in demand.

While that may be true. At Seton Hall, you are not Duke, you are Kentcky, you are not UCLA. You can't wait for Calipari to rise and say that's our next head coach. Every new coach is a roll of the dice. Questioning why our coach is here and we don't roll the dice on another hire when we have a guy who won a big east championship last season is insane in my opinion. Yes the system worked great with an NBA caliber PG and we dont have one this year. I get all that. I think our next big east title is less than 23 years away with him running the show. (I get it, it's not the highest of standards) I can't say that with as much confidence if we play the roll the dice game.

 

[TheBluePirate]

I think our next big east title is less than 23 years away with him running the show. (I get it, it's not the highest of standards) I can't say that with as much confidence if we play the roll the dice game.

Sigh.

Admitting you're right is both admitting to reason and admitting to long-term hopelessness.

It seems that nothing good will ever come, except by accident, and all we're left with his how long we can tolerate buying season tickets. It's an individual matter then, and an individual choice.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Sigh.

Admitting you're right is both admitting to reason and admitting to long-term hopelessness.

It seems that nothing good will ever come, except by accident, and all we're left with his how long we can tolerate buying season tickets. It's an individual matter then, and an individual choice.

That's where you and I disagree. I think the next banner raising is sooner than you think. If we get Duval and everyone stays next year can bring multiple banners to be raised.

 

[SPK145]

Good point on Cooley with players like Peterson, but Whitney was 28 years old when he got into his major trouble long after his playing ended, but he was still hanging around campus.

He was always major trouble.

 

[Shuathelete]

Thank god for tiny morton!!! The only Coach to breach the threshold of sheer disappointment in the last 10 years!!

 

[TheBluePirate]

That's where you and I disagree. I think the next banner raising is sooner than you think. If we get Duval and everyone stays next year can bring multiple banners to be raised.

I like your style. I should listen to you not myself.

 

[dehere23]

One, in particular. Though while I admired what that Coach did it ultimately probably led to him getting fired.

[Plenty of schools could have had IW, but they wanted to stear clear of Tiny Morton.[/QUOTE]

 

[NYShoreGuy]

Orr got Seton Hall Kelly Whitney, who off the court was a YUGE, YUGE problem, not only for thr gun assault.

Then again, Ed Cooley walked into a similar situation at Providence and he turned them around much quicker.

billy garrett got kelly whitney

 

[NYShoreGuy]

I would argue the recruiting relationships which had degraded under BG and Orr were a much bigger real life problem than the nut punch or a player getting arrested (happens all over college sports).

Willard has raised the bar of expectations now. After last season, I expected to see this core of juniors make the tournament again. Watching this team in November and December, I don't think that was asking too much. I think we're right to be disappointed if they don't. Willard has not done a good job filling out the roster. All that said, he obviously has another big opportunity next year with 3 seniors + Cale. We need a PG though.

agree with Hall28 here, I mean look at Baylor 14 years ago they had a player kill another player and the then coach was caught on tape placing blame on certain players and saying it was drug issues. Now look at Baylor, they are bound for doom with the football program. A school sports program is like working at a company not every employee is going to give to charity, stay late and always do what is best for the company's interest. Petty to light shenanigans happens

 

[TomD82]

billy garrett got kelly whitney

While working for Orr. Willard and Sha have really gotten nobody except a bunch transfers including 5th year ones and CBA players. Fred and Antigua are the only ones who have produced.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

While working for Orr. Willard and Sha have really gotten nobody except a bunch transfers including 5th year ones and CBA players. Fred and Antigua are the only ones who have produced.

Ok so Billy Garrett brought Whitney in while working for Orr. Fred and Antigua got all of these guys while working for guess who.... Willard. You can't say Willard hasn't produced recruiting if you are going to use that type of logic for Orr.

 

[TomD82]

Ok so Billy Garrett brought Whitney in while working for Orr. Fred and Antigua got all of these guys while working for guess who.... Willard. You can't say Willard hasn't produced recruiting if you are going to use that type of logic for Orr.

Orr and his staff recruited the type of players needed to win in the BE from the get go. And had relationships with lots of NJ &NY HS plus the Chicago connection. It was 6 years before this guy could compete in the BE. John Dunn has a conference championship and an NCAA appearance.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Orr and his staff recruited the type of players needed to win in the BE from the get go. And had relationships with lots of NJ &NY HS plus the Chicago connection. It was 6 years before this guy could compete in the BE. John Dunn has a conference championship and an NCAA appearance.

What are you talking about? You do realize when Orr was here there were about 4 or 5 teams getting a 5 star recruit annually or a bunch of 4 stars. Orr overachieved in 3 of his 5 years and we did get some good players, but not the type of players UConn, Cuse, ND, BC, Nova, WVU, and even Marquette when they joined the league. UConn and Duke didn't beat us by 50 each by accident. It's not like we had the players to beat those teams and Orr was just out coached.

 

[TomD82]

What are you talking about? You do realize when Orr was here there were about 4 or 5 teams getting a 5 star recruit annually or a bunch of 4 stars. Orr overachieved in 3 of his 5 years and we did get some good players, but not the type of players UConn, Cuse, ND, BC, Nova, WVU, and even Marquette when they joined the league. UConn and Duke didn't beat us by 50 each by accident. It's not like we had the players to beat those teams and Orr was just out coached.

Kevin Willard has a 45-71 Big East coaching lifetime record and is under .500 lifetime in the MAAC. Talk about being out recruited and out coached. Remember the title of the thread.

 

[NYShoreGuy]

What are you talking about? You do realize when Orr was here there were about 4 or 5 teams getting a 5 star recruit annually or a bunch of 4 stars. Orr overachieved in 3 of his 5 years and we did get some good players, but not the type of players UConn, Cuse, ND, BC, Nova, WVU, and even Marquette when they joined the league. UConn and Duke didn't beat us by 50 each by accident. It's not like we had the players to beat those teams and Orr was just out coached.

duke blitzed shu in the first half, that duke team would go on to lose in the sweet 16 to lsu
uconn probably had the most talented, deepest and longest team in the country, 4 nba 1st round picks started on that team, of course we know what happened with them and george mason in the elite 8

 

[shupat08]

Kevin Willard has a 45-71 Big East coaching lifetime record and is under .500 lifetime in the MAAC. Talk about being out recruited and out coached. Remember the title of the thread.

Those arguments have been used here for years. Many on here just dismiss those numbers. Maybe now they don't. Idk though.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

duke blitzed shu in the first half, that duke team would go on to lose in the sweet 16 to lsu
uconn probably had the most talented, deepest and longest team in the country, 4 nba 1st round picks started on that team, of course we know what happened with them and george mason in the elite 8

I know who those teams had. I also know the cast of players Cuse had to win the NC in 2003, and the BET in 2005 and 2006. Wright and Beilein had elite 8 teams while Orr was here. ND and BC had top 15 programs at points while Orr was here. Crean brings in Dominic James, Wesley Matthews and a couple other big time players first year entering the Big East. And Pitt was pretty damn good at that time as well.

So to say Orr brought in players to win in the big east from the get go, TomD82 must be using alternative facts

 

[HallLine69]

While that may be true. At Seton Hall, you are not Duke, you are Kentcky, you are not UCLA. You can't wait for Calipari to rise and say that's our next head coach. Every new coach is a roll of the dice. Questioning why our coach is here and we don't roll the dice on another hire when we have a guy who won a big east championship last season is insane in my opinion. Yes the system worked great with an NBA caliber PG and we dont have one this year. I get all that. I think our next big east title is less than 23 years away with him running the show. (I get it, it's not the highest of standards) I can't say that with as much confidence if we play the roll the dice game.

With all due respect, you're making a case for excusing and --in fact-- encouraging mediocrity. This is what SPK has often referred to as "think small at Seton Hall". I just can't accept that kind of thinking. And if the majority of the fan base does feel that way then we don't deserve to be taken seriously as a basketball program and where we should rightfully be playing is in the MAAC or the Patriot League. But of course we'll take the Big East money and continue our run of ongoing mediocrity interrupted once every 23 years or so by a few days of excellence.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

With all due respect, you're making a case for excusing and --in fact-- encouraging mediocrity. This is what SPK has often referred to as "think small at Seton Hall". I just can't accept that kind of thinking. And if the majority of the fan base does feel that way then we don't deserve to be taken seriously as a basketball program and where we should rightfully be playing is in the MAAC or the Patriot League. But of course we'll take the Big East money and continue our run of ongoing mediocrity interrupted once every 23 years or so by a few days of excellence.

if you continued to read on in the thread I made the case I think if we get Duval we can get a championship banner again next season. If we continue to roll the dice on coaches it may be another 23 years. And for all of those looking at Willards career record, why not also bring up the fact he's 18-11 between last year and this year vs Big East competition.

 

[Piratefan2009]

And for all of those looking at Willards career record, why not also bring up the fact he's 18-11 between last year and this year vs Big East competition.

Probably because it's not fair to judge the success of a coach on weird 14 month windows of time?

It wouldn't be fair to judge him on just year 3 plus half of year 4 either. You take the entirety of the record when judging the coach. The recruiting, the wins, the losses, the drama, the results. It's why one or two losses in the last few games isn't a fair basis for judgment, just like "CoY BE tourney title" isn't a fair judgment either.

I'm happy to wait for the rest of the year to judge Willard's job this season. That's fair (though people can post whatever they want on the board). However, "I'm confident Willard will get us another BE title within the next 22 years" isn't going to thrill most people who are hoping SHU can rise again as a basketball brand.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Probably because it's not fair to judge the success of a coach on weird 14 month windows of time?

It wouldn't be fair to judge him on just year 3 plus half of year 4 either. You take the entirety of the record when judging the coach. The recruiting, the wins, the losses, the drama, the results. It's why one or two losses in the last few games isn't a fair basis for judgment, just like "CoY BE tourney title" isn't a fair judgment either.

I'm happy to wait for the rest of the year to judge Willard's job this season. That's fair (though people can post whatever they want on the board). However, "I'm confident Willard will get us another BE title within the next 22 years" isn't going to thrill most people who are hoping SHU can rise again as a basketball brand.

Does this board have comprehension issues? I said if we continue to roll the dice on coaches we may not have another championship within 23 years. I never said it's going to take 23 years for Willard to win another one.

Read your own post again and ask yourself if we won the remaining 20 games all the way to the national title, his career big east record would still be something like 58-71. Are you judging him on the entirety of his work? Based on that you could fire him. Or are you judging if he has the ship going in the right direction? Who the F cares if he won 1 game in years 1 through 4 at this point, if years 8-10 are looking solid at this point.

 

[TomD82]

I know who those teams had. I also know the cast of players Cuse had to win the NC in 2003, and the BET in 2005 and 2006. Wright and Beilein had elite 8 teams while Orr was here. ND and BC had top 15 programs at points while Orr was here. Crean brings in Dominic James, Wesley Matthews and a couple other big time players first year entering the Big East. And Pitt was pretty damn good at that time as well.

So to say Orr brought in players to win in the big east from the get go, TomD82 must be using alternative facts

Alternative facts? You must be Kellyann Conway defending yourself. A coach with a .387 winning percentage in the BE which is not nearly has good as the old conference and all you keep talking about is teams that Willard has never beaten and other coaches that have multiple NCAA appearances with deep runs. Why is a coach with a horrible record and poor recruiting after 7 years still here? Willard has 2 BET wins against Wright that must be the reason. Only the yo yos on this board can go off topic time after time.

At least 08 acknowledges posters like you choose to ignore facts. Years 8-10 are looking solid. Talk about rolling the dice. You must be using a crystal ball along with your alternative facts.

 

[shupat08]

just like "CoY BE tourney title" isn't a fair judgment either.

Let's be serious... Isaiah Whitehead was the CoY and BE Title winner last year.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

Alternative facts? You must be Kellyann Conway defending yourself. A coach with a .387 winning percentage in the BE which is not nearly has good as the old conference and all you keep talking about is teams that Willard has never beaten and other coaches that have multiple NCAA appearances with deep runs. Why is a coach with a horrible record and poor recruiting after 7 years still here? Willard has 2 BET wins against Wright that must be the reason. Only the yo yos on this board can go off topic time after time.

At least 08 acknowledges posters like you choose to ignore facts. Years 8-10 are looking solid. Talk about rolling the dice. You must be using a crystal ball along with your alternative facts.

Real politician, changing the topic that you are responding to....Orr brought in players to win in the big east from the get go????

And way to ignore the word IF. Re read I said IF years 8-10 are looking solid. The administration has a clue of where we sit.

 

[TomD82]

Let's be serious... Isaiah Whitehead was the CoY and BE Title winner last year.

Stan Heath was also named BE CoY. LOL!

 

[hallgrad80]

Anyway you look at it KW's conference record shows one season, last year, where he had a winning conference record , that's 1 out of 6 . Even if you discount the first two year's to recover from the BG era that mean's he has 1 winning conference record in the past four seasons.

One of the hallmarks of a coach's ability to run a successful program is not only his record on the court but his ability to win the recruiting wars for the talent you need to succeed. Has KW won enough of them to say this program is on an upward tick ? He certainly hasn't in finding a PG to run our offense to have been ready to replace IW and he's missed on every priority PG target to date. While hope springs eternal , does anyone on this board really believe Duval will come here? Does anyone see a center on the roster or commited to SH that could step in and replace Angel if he goes pro and give us what we need at that position. Is Desi's replacement on the roster ? While we do have not only depth we also have talent to replace KC in Powell , Gordon and Cale , but where else can we say we're a team that can sustain success because we're a team that reloads every year and not have to go into rebuild mode. The simple fact is our recruiting is sub-par and if you've had six years to build your pipelines and relationships with the AAU and HS programs your success rate with your priority targets should be higher then ours is.

 

[Seton75]

I am so with spk and others who say the excuses cause of bg were watching overdone. A la baylor. If we hired a dynamic recruiter, he would have rebounded right away. He would have touted the NEW SETON HALL and we would not have make excuses yr after yr.

 

[SHUHoopsFan]

I am so with spk and others who say the excuses cause of bg were watching overdone. A la baylor. If we hired a dynamic recruiter, he would have rebounded right away. He would have touted the NEW SETON HALL and we would not have make excuses yr after yr.

I agree 100%. However

1. I'm not sure that a dynamic recruiter was on the top of the list when hiring. Cleaning up the mess was.
2. you cannot hire people who do not apply for the job. Of the list of candidates who was the dynamic recruiter we overlooked?

 

[Pirate143]

he is only here b/c he has no where else to go. after winning BE title, no other school came knocking. I am sure he got a nice bump in his compensation package and a tighter buy-out. if not, he is as poor of a negotiator as he is a recruiter.

lets be realistic, KW is our coach for the next few years. we will have to live with the inconsistent on-court performances, the poor recruiting and the hope that another IW is interested.

 

[hallwins]

I learned one thing from being a Seton Hall fan - not to listen to message boards about when to change a coach and whom to hire. Exhibit A - the Gonzalez for Orr exchange.

The recent losses notwithstanding, all things considered, we are in such a better place than any period of time since Amaker was here. We are more than respectable, but are missing pieces with 2 good recruits coming in and involvement with a ton of others. If nothing else, due to a variety of factors, this is such a better job than it was 5 years ago or when Orr was let go.

Name who has this overall and conference record at his current school?

HINT : another coach many on this board would've liked to hire.

72-70 (.507) 32–40 (.441)

Now guess the coach that had this first 3 year record:

19–13 7–9
15–16 8–8
18–17 6–10

Then after some success, this big time drop off:

13–19 5–13

 

[thehall07]

Willard needs to build on his weaknesses; offensive game plans, recruiting, and over coaching. Once he is able to solve one we will be in a better spot. Key for me is what he can do for a PG next year...